Some thoughts are believed. Is "believing" done with thought?

[sakoz]

  " Think of a image that disturbs you."    You just 'activated' your IMAGE REACTOR. ( It works as automatically as a mirror.)
I'm not interested in WHAT/WHICH image you just used; I'm just demonstrating 'your'  IMAGE REACTOR.     (in action; a 'field test', if you will).
You CAN'T SEE IT, you EXPERIENCE it's EFFECTS.   (black box output)

"Is "believing' done with language,thought, images?  HOW is 'believing' done ? Is 'believing' a 'mechanism or a process or both?

[Enigma]

Yes and no. The answer really depends on what exactly you mean by "thought".  Some beliefs are formed by conscious thought: you consciously weigh the evidence and make a decision on the truth value of the information.  If you accept the info as true, a belief is formed.  You can also have unconscious beliefs.  For example, do you believe that Hitler had nipples?  Of course you do, all humans have nipples.  You obviously believe this statement even though you may have never consciously entertained the idea of Hitler's nipples.

[pljames]

   ?      ?     ?

Is belief a spiritual or material trait? pljames

[sakoz]

Thank you for replying. What do I mean by the word "thought"? The dictionary definition will do; unless otherwise mentioned.
"If you accept the info as true, a belief is formed."  The word 'true' is a evaluation (thought) analogous to words like "good" & "bad".
Your statement implies (to me)  "believing a belief".
Specific images (Hitlers nipples) are distracting, specific images are implied because there is no 'believing' without content, just as there's no 'running' without legs in motion.
Do thoughts do the believing like legs do the running? 'Running' is a choice, isn't 'believing' also a choice? Not when done automatically, by habit. Choice is relinquished when done by habit.

Is my question of "The HOW of believing"?  too abstract? Is it a unanswerable question?

pljames; "Is belief a spiritual or material trait?"  Look at the 'content' of any belief. there's Language/thought/image.Do they 'start' out as "formless energy",? manifested into the 'form' of
language,thought,images.     e=mc2 implies just that.  Is water 'solid'? Only when/while frozen.  ( Enigma answered "yes and no"; so here too, yes and no depends what you mean).

[pljames]

I have asked does thoughts have intelligence and it is energy (never received a answer). Why if we can give our thoughts power to help us overcome whatever problem we have then is that energy or intelligence? Thoughts to me come from us by our observation of the world put into our memory banks. Language is also input into our memory banks. See [link removed due to typo] for a might be answer on how the mind makes a sentence from words and let me know. pljamesone@att.net



edit: Please check your spelling on links

[sakoz]

 ",,,,,does thoughts have intelligence and is it energy." Intelligence is the ability to use thoughts.  Anything we USE is a artifact. ( write a thought, a command or order on a piece of paper and watch  to see if it's carried out while you watch the command on the paper. No? there's no intelligence in thought per se.) (artifacts require users)( you may not recognize it but you USE thoughts like you use utensils and tools)
Are 'thoughts' made of energy? I direct you to e=mc2. Everthing starts as , or comes from 'energy' and returns, eventually.

What do I look for at [link removed]   ?

[pljames]

What do I look for at [link removed] the way it finds synonyms. To me thats how thoughts work.pljames

",,,,,does thoughts have intelligence and is it energy." Intelligence is the ability to use thoughts.  Anything we USE is a artifact. ( write a thought, a command or order on a piece of paper and watch  to see if it's carried out while you watch the command on the paper. No? there's no intelligence in thought per se.) (artifacts require users)( you may not recognize it but you USE thoughts like utensils & tools)
Are 'thoughts' made of energy? I direct you to e=mc2. Everthing starts as , or comes from 'energy' and returns, eventually.

What do I look for at [link removed]  ?

edit: @pljames please check your links for typing errors these links point to an empty domain

[pljames]

The way it finds synonyms I believe thoughts act like this to. pljames

[sakoz]

pljames; You had a 'experience/realization'; we can give it a name, a label, etc.  I will describe it as a "opening" between the conscious and unconscious mind.   
You did not say how long it lasted; 10 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day, etc. or are you still "open"? Can you relate to this? Or do you describe it differently? It's vitually indescribable but we try.
Sri Nisargadatta Marharaj experienced  it at age 15 and remained "open" (as I call it here) for the rest of his life.

[SWM]

I am in agreement with enigma's post but want to add that conscious thought is only a shadow of the actual processing which is carried out by the central nervous system. your brain is what processes the information. thought and the conscious awareness of of this processing is a shadow or reflection of the brains functioning. deciscions and beliefs are formed in the brain and consciousness is simply reflecting that processing.

[SWM]

@pljames please check your links for typing errors when posting links. i have removed two pointless posts about a dead link and had to edit two posts because the links point to redundant domains.

I am amking the assumption that you wanted to link to this website http://www.visualthesaurus.com/

[pljames]

Thank you I was trying to get`sakoz to see this address. pljames

[sakoz]

SWM; Thanks; "shadow or reflection" well said, perfect for my point. Go the next step and 'borrow' from Abe Lincoln.
"Some of the people fool themselves all the time by believing shadow/reflection real; some people only fool themselves some of the time by believing shadows/reflections are real; not all people believe their shadow/reflection (thoughts) are real all the time." Thanks  to ABE too.

(it would be redundant to say IMAGE REACTOR is in the brain or is the brain.)

How is water 'solidified"?  By FREEZING.    Is asking how are thoughts believed? Out-of-bounds? Unwarranted? A no no? A pseudo question? A mystery? A conundrum?
 
See my thread; " Can You Purposely Shift Perspective?" To see mental health professionals "believe" their shadow/reflection/images are real (unwittingly)

[sakoz]

SWM; You made a very significant contribution; I gratefully acknowledge. You wrote: '...your brain is what processes the information. thought and the conscious awareness of of this processing is a shadow or reflection of the brains functioning. decisions and beliefs are formed in the brain....". I will make a significant contribution by pointing out the implications some readers may have missed. "Our brain,(functioning like a black box) decides to believe a false thought; that thought 'surfaces' into awareness ALREADY BELIEVED , etc.(you know the effects/consequences of reacting to/experiencing false thoughts).
Another scenario: Our brain decides to  believe a false thought that does NOT 'surface'  into awareness but is reacted to 'subliminally'. We experience the effects nonetheless, (emotional suffering and/or dysfunctional behavior). Of course we are puzzled at the effects we experience when we DON"T recognize the cause. Sometimes we're not puzzled but take our behavior for granted, again see my thread; "Can You "Purpoesly Shift Perspective?" #s 5,6, to see psychiatrists NOT recognize "unwittingly believed' thought images as if real.

NEUROPLASTICITY, gentlemen, neuroplasticity.

[SWM]

I read all your posts no need to read them again.

[sakoz]

I was addressing the other readers, even though the post has your name at the opening.
You mean to tell me you never read a book  more than once? Who in the world has not read a book a second time and 'saw' something MISSED on first reading? You are 'missing' much.
Do you have eidetic(photographic) memory? Even that has to be accessed to be useful.

[pljames]

About the brain. Where do the electric impulses come from? Are they energy and do they have intelligence or knowledge? Where does knowledge come from (see http://www.visuralthesurus.com). Why do the thoughts I hear come from? Can I program my unconcious ego from my concious mind? pl

SWM; You made a very significant contribution; I gratefully acknowledge. You wrote: '...your brain is what processes the information. thought and the conscious awareness of of this processing is a shadow or reflection of the brains functioning. decisions and beliefs are formed in the brain....". I will make a significant contribution by pointing out the implications some readers may have missed. "Our brain,(functioning like a black box) decides to believe a false thought; that thought 'surfaces' into awareness ALREADY BELIEVED , etc.(you know the effects/consequences of reacting to/experiencing false thoughts).
Another scenario: Our brain decides to  believe a false thought that does NOT 'surface'  into awareness but is reacted to 'subliminally'. We experience the effects nonetheless, (emotional suffering and/or dysfunctional behavior). Of course we are puzzled at the effects we experience when we DON"T recognize the cause. Sometimes we're not puzzled but take our behavior for granted, again see my thread; "Can You "Purpoesly Shift Perspective?" #s 5,6, to see psychiatrists NOT recognize "unwittingly believed' thought images as if real.

NEUROPLASTICITY, gentlemen, neuroplasticity.

[Enigma]

About the brain. Where do the electric impulses come from?

Biochemical reactions

Are they energy

yes

and do they have intelligence or knowledge?

No

Where does knowledge come from (see http://www.visuralthesurus.com).

Read up on epistemology. 

Why do the thoughts I hear come from?

Your conscious mind.

Can I program my unconcious ego from my concious mind?

No

[pljames]

About epistemology. My guess is knowledge comes from God I cannot believe knowledge comes from evolution because where did the first thinking human evolve for ooz? I would like to believe knowledge comes from God in spirit form and joins with material and experience. pljames

[pljames]

Can I program my unconcious ego from my concious mind?
You said no why? pl

[Enigma]

What you want to believe is true and what is actually true do not always overlap.  Do you understand what evolution is and how it works? 

Evolutionarily speaking, the conscious mind is a relatively new function of our brains, caused by advanced development of the frontal lobes (the lobes responsible for abstract thinking and executive functions).  For aeons, our ancestors relied on the primitive, instinctual, "unconscious" mind to guide their actions.  This conscious mind is such a new feature that it cannot influence the basic instinctual unconscious mind.  The conscious can learn strategies and coping mechanisms to deal with the unconscious, but it cannot directly reprogram it and change how it works. 

[sakoz]

Enigma, you wrote;"The conscious mind is such a new feature that it cannot influence the basic instinctual unconscious mind." I contend just the opposite; the conscious mind evolved
to influence the instinctive unconscious mind; as a virtual 'thermostat'. We are doing a very poor job so far because most don't know,-. we don't have 'training wheels".
pljames; you ask; "Can I program my unconscious ego from my conscious mind.?" Consider this; Animals are born with instincts. They cannot add or delete any.
I wrote; "We are conditioned TO and BY language." (Haven't you been reading my "stuff"?  hehe).
Hypnosis, placebo effect, indoctrination involves and requires BELIEVING; those are examples of "conditioned TO language" (of others).
When you BELIEVE your OWN thoughts, is conditioned BY language. My sentence; "We are conditioned TO and BY language" was not meant to be cryptic; if read cursorily, one easily 'mistakes' one's own interpretation as if that's what I meant by the sentence.
The point is; we humans are "programmABLE"; our 'programmABILITY' is utilized simply by BELIEVING language/thought/image. Animals can't add nor delete instincts.
The advantage of programmABILITY is a wider range of adaptation,( no air on the moon, as a result of foresight of THOUGHT, astronauts took some with) versatiliy, innovation, inventiveness, creativity, etc.
Judging by the number of people seeking therapy and others suffering emotionally and behaving dysfunctionally; indicates we're NOT YET efficaciously utilizing our programmabiliy.
When we don't even recognize believing false thoughts, no wonder we 'bungle/blunder'.  Images are not real empirical facts of the world we live in.

[SWM]

I think the use of the terms unconscious mind and conscious mind are misleading in this context.

there is no "thing" that is the unconcious mind, what we think of and describe as unconscious mind is the brain functioning outside of awareness/consciousness. Similarly there is no "thing" that is conscious mind, what we think of as conscious mind is the brain functioning in awareness/concsiousness.

When you pay attention to your feet you become conscious of your feet. Your feet where always being attended to by the brain but not in your awareness/ conscious mind. Similarly with language formation, decision making, involuntary/voluntary reactions. Anything that happens in conscious mind (awareness) has already happened in the brain.

[sakoz]

pljames; Did you hear about the little,boy who was playing outside with a friend and he came in his home and asked his mother; " Where did I come from?" The mother proceeds to tell him about 'the birds and the bees'. About conception, gestation, birth. Then the little,boy says; "My friend is from Chicago, where am I from?"
You asked a 'practical' question; "Can I program my unconscious ego from my conscious mind?" Did you 'like' the answers? Were they useful? Here's one more;
 "We can BE programED."
 "We can DO programmING."

[sakoz]

SWM; your #22 reply is "good' information. " Anything that happens in conscious mind (awareness) has already happened in the brain."
The brain is autonomous like other internal organs.  I'm familar with (some of) Benjamin Libet's 'work', I would like to know more.
Laymen are now in the position of early scientists; they dealt with 'observables'. Then they realized, "there's MORE than meets the eye".  VOI-LA / EUREKA
There's a submicroscopic realm of molecules, atoms, electrons, that 'cause' the 'effects' we see/experience. Brains cause the effects we experience. We finally 'know'.
Look how 'science' 'grew' exponentially after RECOGNIZING submicroscopic level, dare I say we can expect that in the  Social Sciences ,in therapeutic advances?
Yes, the brain-central nervous system 'produces' thought', (SWM #9 above.)
 "Thought" feeds-back and influences subsequent out-put. Why else would you correct false thoughts via therapy. So a 'better' quality of thought is produced, called
'Mental Health'.

[sakoz]

Enigma; In reference to your #20 above; clarification: The frontal lobes, as part of the brain , is unconscious to consciousness. There 'may' be a "membrane" of sorts, between the 'old' and 'new' brain 'parts', something like corpus callousm. There is no vocabulary or beliefs in the 'old' brain 'part'. But the 'old' brain has been reacting to perceptions for aeons. So how can the "relatively new brain(frontal lobes)" influence the 'old' brain? As I maintain.  By BELIEVING some images are real, the 'old' brain is wired/compelled to react to perceptions, BELIEVED thought images  "fool/deceive" the old brain to react as it does to perceptions, it's  'forte'. Just as we utilize flowing water to turn water-wheels and turbines, the new brain utilizes the old brain at what it does so well.

[pljames]

SMW"your brain is what processes the information. thought and the conscious awareness of of this processing is a shadow or reflection of the brains functioning. deciscions and beliefs are formed in the brain and consciousness is simply reflecting that processing."

So your brain is the one operating your mind and conciousness? Does spiritual action do anything to make this action happen? pl

I am in agreement with enigma's post but want to add that conscious thought is only a shadow of the actual processing which is carried out by the central nervous system. your brain is what processes the information. thought and the conscious awareness of of this processing is a shadow or reflection of the brains functioning. deciscions and beliefs are formed in the brain and consciousness is simply reflecting that processing.

[pljames]

Instead of thinking the mind is invisible could I recreate my mind as my brain? The brain I know so without the image of the brain just use the brain that has a vast knowledge in it? pl

[SWM]

Does spiritual action do anything to make this action happen?

PLjames, You ask a question that crosses from provable scientific facts to philosphical metaphysical theorising.

I could hypothesize and come up with some great explanations of how the phsyical world is an expression of the spiritual world but they would only be hypothetical postulations / theories.

[sakoz]

pljames; there's a 'cross section' of people here. Some believe brains produce 'consciousness' the way turds produce 'odor'.