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Demiurgic Truth

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Freud and Jung
« on: August 24, 2010, 04:19:08 AM »
Freud took material from patient's case histories, looked at patterns and interpreted based on what he believed the patient's psychological problems to be. Jung related imagery to myths and symbols. Most of their interpretations on dreams are very different.
Which do you tend to believe more, if either?

alloker

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 11:52:15 AM »
FREUD’S WISH FULFILLMENT  THEORY

Freud initially interpreted dreams by likening them to daydreams and psychotic hallucinations and had no theory. The daydreams of mentally healthy persons are wish fulfillments as any healthy person knows from personal experience. Psychotic hallucinations are either external attributions of failures or imaginary successes that are unrealistic and even irrational and can be considered such wish fulfillments. But there is no basis for assuming that dreams too mean wish fulfillments.

In order to make the meaning of a dream fit  the wish fulfillment hypothesis, Freud used the idea of disguising through the operations of inversion and displacement. For example, when a dream said “closed,” he was able to interpret it as meaning “open.” He also assumed basely that all past events that the dreamer could remember in the waking state through associations of ideas with the dream images were part of the dream thoughts.  Evidently, using arbitrarily such a wealth of material and the operations of inversion and displacement any event can be interpreted in any way one wishes. These facts alone make Freud’s theory of dreams untenable.

Freud spent five years to write his book on dreams because in the first four years he could not find a theoretical basis for his wish fulfillment hypothesis and his idea of disguising. The following events took place in Freud’s life during those five years.

Freud was unable to cure his hysterical patient Emma, as usual. With his permission, his friend Fliess performed a surgical operation on Emma's nose on February 20, 1895 to terminate her hysterical symptoms (?!). Excessive bleeding that nearly killed her occurred after the operation, a second operation was performed by another surgeon, and meter-long gauze was removed from her nose, which was accidentally left there by Fliess. But her bleeding continued. On April 21, 1896, Freud delivered his lecture The Etiology of Hysteria, according to which this disorder is caused by being seduced and abused in childhood.

On April 26 the same year he wrote to Fliess. “Her  episodes of bleeding were hysterical, were occasioned by longing.”  On May 4: “She became restless during the night because of an unconscious wish to entice me to go there, and since I did not come, she renewed the bleeding, as an unfailing means of rearousing my affection.” June 4:  “Her  hemorrhages were due to wishes.”  They were undoubtedly caused by the faulty surgical operation since they began after the operation. She may have consciously or semi-consciously welcomed the bleeding if she really longed to see Freud, but there is no reason for assuming that her unconscious caused the self-harming behavior just to see Freud. His thinking was wishful: it served to feed his ego and to hide his failure to cure her.

Freud’s father died in October 1896, and he began his self-analysis in the summer of 1897. He discovered that he had been sexually abused in his childhood;  thereupon he developed hysterical symptoms and wrote about them to Fliess. Consequently, he switched from the seduction theory of hysteria to its fantasy theory, according to which this disorder is caused by repressed unacceptable sexual wishes. In his famous letter to Fliess dated September 1, 1897, he explained why he made this change. None of the reasons that he mentioned in that letter has any scientific value; they are rather related to his personal psychological and professional needs. He also thought that lying to hysterical patients about the cause of their illness was the only means of helping them.

It appears that Freud conceived the fantasy theory of hysteria and based the whole psychoanalytic theory on it by integrating his baseless and wishful interpretation of Emma’s hemorrhages with his baseless wish fulfillment theory of dreams, for he wrote to Fliess on January 3, 1899: “The key to hysteria really lies in dreams. I understand now why, in spite of all my efforts, I was unable to finish the dream book.” On February 19, 1899 he wrote: “It is not only dreams that are fulfillments of wishes, but hysterical attacks as well. This is true of hysterical symptoms, but it probably applies to every product of neurosis.” He published The Interpretation of Dreams in September 1899. This is how Freud’s theories of dreams and neurosis were born out of baseless assumptions and wishful thinking.

One of the arguments Freud used in his dream book in support of his wish fulfillment theory is that the mind can do nothing but fulfilling wishes. Consequently, he continued to interpreted everything in a dream as meaning wish fulfillment. What he failed to see is that although the function of the mind can be said to fulfill wishes, i.e., to satisfy needs, it produces plenty of preparatory thoughts that serve to fulfill wishes but are not wish fulfillments themselves, and that such thoughts can be found in dreams. For example, to fulfill a wish consciously in the waking state one has to think why it is not fulfilled and how it can be fulfilled. This second thought can look like imaginary wish fulfillment but not the first one. Jung called Freud’s theory the "imaginary wish fulfillment theory."

JUNG’S COMPENSATION THEORY

According to Jung, dreams compensate the lopsidedness in the conscious attitude. His dream interpretations show that what he meant by lopsidedness was a harmful mistake, or a harmful cognitive-behavioral failure, and the compensation of it meant the correction, or termination, of it. It is not clear how exactly he arrived at this conclusion, but we can guess from some of his dream interpretations how he may have conceived of the idea of compensation, as exemplified below.

A young man had a dream that pictured his father as an unreliable man. Jung found out that this young man was in reality admiring his father and was relying too much on him. Jung therefore interpreted the dream as taking the father down and elevating the son, and he considered this the compensation of the real situation. He remarked that this looked like “an immoral business” but added that “compensation is entirely to the point.” Similarly, he interpreted all dreams that he could fit into the compensation theory as presenting the compensation or termination of a mistake in the conscious attitude. It is obvious that the above dream about father presented not the compensation of lopsidedness but the lopsidedness itself, because it said only and explicitly that the father was unreliable and implied that the son was wrong in relying on him so much. Moreover, the anxiety that the dreamer experienced meant that his father’s unreliability was harmful for the dreamer.  The dream did not picture the compensated state of the lopsidedness, as Jung thought, in which case the dream would carry positive affect. It just warned the son about the state of his father. Thus, like Freud interpreted everything in a dream as the fulfillment of a wish, Jung interpreted everything as the termination of a mistake. Consequently, he and his followers read in many dreams the exact opposite of the dream’s true meaning, although they also interpreted some dreams correctly or nearly correctly. They also failed to fit many dreams into the frame of the compensation theory and therefore used obscure and mystic ideas such as mandala, archetype, and collective unconscious.

CONCLUSION

Freud’s wish fulfillment theory has no theoretical basis, and his interpretations are arbitrary, as explained above. Also, he belatedly explained anxiety dreams by saying that consciousness experienced anxiety when an unacceptable wish was fulfilled without being sufficiently disguised -  the unconscious being happy, presumably. He completely failed to interpret incest dreams, because if (a) a dream showed the disguised fulfillment of a repressed unacceptable wish, and (b) anxiety was caused as explained by him, incest dreams would be anxiety dreams, which they are not. Freud’s wish fulfillment theory is baseless and absolutely useless and is even misleading.

Jung’s compensation theory is essentially correct but is not correctly used, because all types of thought that the mind produces for terminating mistakes are not considered. Also, it is not possible to interpret every dream on the basis of the compensation theory presented by Jung, and often the exact opposite of the real message of a dream is read in it.

The correct meaning and function of dreams can be understood only by taking into consideration (a) the types of thought that are produced consciously and rationally in the waking state when trying to terminate failures, or fulfilling wishes; (b) the cerebral lateralization and the development of mental functions, including the production of dreams; and (c) the fact that dream cognition and language is not symbolic but concrete analogic, or pictorial metaphoric.

When this is done, it is found that a complete dream contains the following three types of thought: (a) the presentation of the failure, frustration, mistake, or lopsidedness that needs to be terminated; (b) the explanation of the cause or causes of the failure, which is in the form of its external attribution; and (c) the proposed means of terminating the failure. One or two of these types of thought may be missing in a dream for various reasons or may be implicit in another type of thought; but the failure that is treated is always present in explicit or implicit form. Anxiety means that the images show something that is bad for the dreamer, something that needs to be avoided or terminated, i.e., they represent the failure treated by the dream. A dream that contains only an event that is accompanied by anxiety serves as a warning. In opposition to this, positive feelings mean that the images show something good for the dreamer, i.e., the termination of the failure, frustration, mistake, or lopsidedness.

This is the only understanding of dreams that can explain the existence of incest dreams. The fact that dream language is concrete analogic means that an object or event is represented in a dream by a well known other object or event that has some common features with it. In other words, a concrete-analogic representation does not mean that what the images show is identical with what they mean, but that they have some common features. This mode of representation is necessitated by the mode of cognition of the part of the brain which produces the dreams, and it also serves to convey meanings in a very condensed way. Dream interpretation consists of discovering these common features between what the images show and what they mean.

Dream analogies acquire meaning in the context created by failures and frustrations experienced by the dreamer in real life and the three types of thought than are found in dreams. Because everyone has incest dreams, those dreams must be related to a frustration related to sex that everyone experiences. In fact, nobody is perfectly satisfied with every instance of sexual intercourse, and when this happens, negative feelings are produced. So, the incest dreams may be related to those negative feelings. Incest dreams are pleasurable dreams which look revolting only in the waking state, evidently because the meaning of dreams is not yet known. It appears that incest dreams are interpreted as wish fulfillment or compensation dreams like daydreams, baselessly as explained above.

According to the concrete-analogic language of dreams, the sex partner in an incest dream does not represent that real person; it represents only some real features of that person. It thus appears that an incest dream means that the sexual act can be perfectly satisfactory only if the partners intimately know, respect, and love each other, because this is the kind of partner that appears in those dreams. Therefore “incest dream” is a misnomer.

 
Loker, A. (2007). New Facts about Dreams and Psychotherapy Deduced from Jung’s Compensation Theory. Journal of Jungian Theory and Practice, Vol. 9, Nr. 2.

Loker, A. (2002). Cognitive-Behavioral Cybernetics of Symptoms, Dreams, Lateralization: Theory,  Interpretation, Therapy.

Loker, A. (1987). Dreams and Psychosynthesis.

Masson, J. M. (1984). The Assault on Truth: Freud's Suppression of the Seduction Theory.


Sparrowhawk1161

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 06:08:53 PM »
Everyone probably knows REM sleep.  New research says there is more going on in dreams that REM.  Before you go into REM... people experience a chaotic randomness of images.  This was done on rats for all things.  Before they REM'd the rats, they were trying to go through the maze they had saw before sleep.  In non-REM sleep, the rat had was random images, as if trying to find the way to the treat awaiting them.  It made no sense...until they REM'd...then, in the rats mind, it worked it's way through the maze to the treat.  When it woke up and was out through the maze...it went right to the treat.

OK what does this mean?  Some people who are studying sleep believe that before you begin REM you are trying to work something out in your mind.  Some type of problem or a goal.  You get random images... during non-REM, it happens during light sleep when you are almost on the vurge of awakefulness.  When you REM, you actually take those random images and make sense of them.  These usually are the dreams you remember.  The ones which make sense.

The documentary I saw says you actually dream all the time...not just in REM but in non-REM, too.  There is a pattern to dreams which happens all night long where you are actually solving problems in your mind.  In other words, when you wake up from a dream, the dream you had was a compilation of images you had been working on and what you remember is your mind trying to make sense of it all.

WOW
Entangled was a CNA working in psychiatric hospital for many years, and enjoyed taking to people.  Since then, he has studied psychology and sociology and has been a patient himself with OCD, anxiety and depresssion...

I'm, not a therapist.  I'm an advocate for professional help!

Bill Hemphill

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2010, 09:47:36 PM »
Just for fun Sparrow, how did the rats respond to the inkblot test?

Sparrowhawk1161

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 04:47:16 PM »
Billl...I think they ate it!:)

I'm sorry...a can't help myself now!!.

"Mr. Mouse...what does this look like?"

"Cheese"

"And, this one?"

"Cheese with bacon."

"And, this one?"

"Two mice gettting it on...eating bacon and cheese."

"And, this one?"

"Two mice getting it on, inviting all one hundred of their relatives, all eating bacon and cheese."

"And, this one...?"

Entangled was a CNA working in psychiatric hospital for many years, and enjoyed taking to people.  Since then, he has studied psychology and sociology and has been a patient himself with OCD, anxiety and depresssion...

I'm, not a therapist.  I'm an advocate for professional help!

Outsider

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 10:45:19 PM »
Freud didn't have a clue. But for an armchair psychologist, Jung wasn't bad - he had some ideas which were later verified.

NataEames

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2010, 12:44:49 AM »
Lol guys, my shrink kept showing me inkblots definitely designed by pornographers!

gone

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 12:29:36 AM »
Interesting. This was ages ago but remains with me so I shall share as an example.
This guy came to work in our office from another branch and he would email me from across the room and chat when we passed. He was a friendly guy. He chatted with everyone.

Anyway while sleeping I had a dream about him, in my dream he had a detachable leg and he kept removing it and offering it to me then re-attaching the leg to his body.
I remember someone saying in Jung theory this symbolised a 'connection' and my subconscious was wondering or working out if there was a connection between me and this guy. The leg the connection/disconnection.

Before someone said the above my theory had been: that day at work he had complained to me about having a sore leg, he went on and on, really dwelling on it, eventually I said something like 'at least you've got legs, some people don't, so stop moaning it will get better' ... Well I didn't know at that point he was an athlete too & his injury meant more than I knew, but worse I later found out his mom was a victim of thalidomide. Shame on me. :-(

As I think we dream what has happened during the day or been on our mind etc.. I thought I dreamt about the leg because of the conversation we had about his sore leg. But in Jung theory the leg was symbolic of an emotional connection..

Make of it what you will.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:40:23 AM by captcha »

NataEames

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 03:36:29 AM »
It depends on the situation and what the symbols mean personally to the dreamer.
For example
If i dream of the number 6, somebody might interpret it as being something negative or whatever (just an example)
but if i was during that time worrying about selling my apartment, which was on the 6th floor, the dream meaning changes completely.

alloker

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 01:08:53 PM »
"at least you've got legs, some people don't, so stop moaning it will get better!"

The dream meant: "You wouldn't feel and talk like that if your leg was hurting!" Many of Jung's ideas are mystical. In fact, for a long time he heard a voice that was telling him that what he was doing was art, not science.

NataEames

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Re: Freud and Jung
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 07:27:36 PM »
Hey, Al, havent seen you here for a while, we missed you!
You're right about Jung hearing the voice. My voice is better now too btw :)

 

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