General psychology

[pljames]

I like psychology very much. But it seems to push ones thoughts to ask a lot of questions. It is  said "Know thyself" and it is a good and bad saying. Good because one can get in touch with ones real self and ones bad side as well. I have learned about the ego on this sight and the word (reality) as well. All my life I thought I was in charge of my life and reality as I percieved and understood it. But come to understand I wasn't.
This forum has put me in touch with my (true reality called self). I never ever realized that part of my reality existed. I am still reeling from that knowledge. The mind is a universe of itself. In my case outside stimuli triggers my memory and my emotions plus my beliefs and within all of that my ego as well. I am trying to understand (my dark side) as well as the (real me). If their is any more information I need please let me know.

I need to find the real me. Thoughts please pljames

[pert -5]

I like psychology very much. But it seems to push ones thoughts to ask a lot of questions. It is  said "Know thyself" and it is a good and bad saying. Good because one can get in touch with ones real self and ones bad side as well. I have learned about the ego on this sight and the word (reality) as well. All my life I thought I was in charge of my life and reality as I percieved and understood it. But come to understand I wasn't.
This forum has put me in touch with my (true reality called self). I never ever realized that part of my reality existed. I am still reeling from that knowledge. The mind is a universe of itself. In my case outside stimuli triggers my memory and my emotions plus my beliefs and within all of that my ego as well. I am trying to understand (my dark side) as well as the (real me). If their is any more information I need please let me know.

I need to find the real me. Thoughts please pljames

Ego will end.  It is still a part of eternity.  All of life is conterminous with existence.  I guess, the death of the brain is a TRUE death, but it's true.   Attach to a good goal in life, but harbor in your mind the transience.  You'll go far! 

[sakoz]

pljames; You write: "This forum has put me in touch with my (true reality called self). I never ever realized that part of my reality existed.I am still reeling from that knowledge."
It seems to me  you have much to offer if you directly experienced rather than theorized about 'self'. Yet in your last statement you write:"I need to find the real me." In  first quote you did find (true reality called self). Please explain what you have yet to find.

[pljames]

It seems my ego is my dark side. I think I found the true me by being friendly and try to not judge others. I am part of society and not a hermit. That seems to be the true me, which I wasn't before. I am happy for the first time in my life. I also are getting in touch with my emotions and understanding how they are part of me and not my enemy. I owe this forum much. Thanks. pljames

pljames; You write: "This forum has put me in touch with my (true reality called self). I never ever realized that part of my reality existed.I am still reeling from that knowledge."
It seems to me  you have much to offer if you directly experienced rather than theorized about 'self'. Yet in your last statement you write:"I need to find the real me." In  first quote you did find (true reality called self). Please explain what you have yet to find.

[720iD]

Your essence exists only in the present moment. This essence that exists is the self that you seek. That which is in the past but enters the present is not the self, eliminate it. That which is in the future and enters the present is not the self, eliminate it.

The self exists now, experience it. Let go of mental murmurings of the future, they are not the self. Let go of ruminations of the past, they are not the self.

Telling yourself stories about who the self is, and what the self does is not being in the self that exists in the present. seek out the self in the present moment that is all of the self that exists.

[pljames]

Concerning the now or moment. Time is always moving past present and future. How can we live in the moment if it's gone in a moment? We learn from the past the present and hope for the future. As long as we are breathing we have life. Life is the now. But it is fleeting as well. All we have is hope in the next moment. pljames

Your essence exists only in the present moment. This essence that exists is the self that you seek. That which is in the past but enters the present is not the self, eliminate it. That which is in the future and enters the present is not the self, eliminate it.

The self exists now, experience it. Let go of mental murmurings of the future, they are not the self. Let go of ruminations of the past, they are not the self.

Telling yourself stories about who the self is, and what the self does is not being in the self that exists in the present. seek out the self in the present moment that is all of the self that exists.

[720iD]

Time is the measurement of the changing of the present. The self does not exist in the future nor in the past. The stories that self is enthralled with are keeping the self entangled in that which is not the real self.

[pljames]

Amen to that. pljames

[pljames]

Now that I have found me I now understand their are those around me that are living their illusionary reality. Where do I go from here? To attempt too tell them they to are living a illusion. How does a person who has discovered a truth about oneself and then tell them I had a wake up call? Do I live with my true understanding and keep it to myself share it with others or what? pljames

[S. Earl Martin]

I use a technique I call " non judgemental analogy". If you approach someone directly and try to convince them their reality is flawed. They will most likely become defensive and won't listen. So I use an example of my life or someone elses life to demonstrate my point. This is makeing an analogy in an attempt to get them to associate it with their reality and realize the connection. That way they think the change is internal and are more likely to accept it.

Also we all are imperfect beings and our reality changes constantly. Discovering things about ourselves and others is just part of the process. Granted sometimes the discoveries are major and can be a shock, but if we realize we were wrong or even decieving ourselves. This is a good thing. I have always learned more from my failures than my successes.
I use this measurement:
What I know
What I think I know
What I don't know
And What I can't know.

This allows me to organize information in a way I can process it. As well as organize it. Peace

[pljames]

Their was a man called (Jesus) he lived in a very religious society. He to used parables because he knew those people to lived in a illusionary reality. How could I do this in todays world? pljames

[sakoz]

pljames; I have been reading what you write. I don't remember the bible very well anymore. But Jesus said something like; " And you too will be able to do what I do".
Is that what your asking about? Many people will not  be able to understand what you experienced. Some will make fun of you; but you know what you experienced.
If Jesus came back and wanted to go on T.V. he would have to pay for air time. I'm not sure who can help you, but keep trying.

[pljames]

Yes. pljames

[sakoz]

pljames; You mention "illusionary reality". I write about that too. See my #5 in "Can You 'Purposely Shift Perspective". I mention the article that shows even psychiatrists react to their
"illusionary reality" by reacting to their 'believed thought images". Isn't that a case of the "blind leading the blind"? It is my contention that the 'common denominator' of  emotional suffering and dysfunctional behavior is "believing some images are real' and it is those reactions to such images that result in emotional suffering and/or dysfunctional behavior.
We both want to help  people RECOGNIZE when they are reacting to 'illusionary  reality' of their own making when they believe THEIR images are real. Recognition is the first step  before any change can be made.

[pljames]

Recognize and understand they are living a illusion that is real to them is like trying to convince someone they can change their reality. I now know I can, I am convinced and persuaded that my ego is my dark side with brains. If you will sin. I love psychology but knowing isn't enough. Why do people argue on philosophy, because they can't be wrong. I am going to have to change my thoughts on how to persuade others they are living a illusion. Persuade by charisma. Thoughts please. pl

[S. Earl Martin]

The parables of Jesus is a similar technic to what I am discribing. His examples were more general. Pretaining to masses or the general population. What I am discribing is more personel. When I was younger I was nick named The Watcher by my peers. I didn't talk much and when I did it was for a reason. I mainly just watched others. I would see someone about to make a mistake. If I tried to tell them most of the time they would just blow me off. After it would happen they would blame me. Saying if I hadn't said it was going to happen it wouldn't have happened. Which makes no sense, but that was their way of thinking. Or they would think I was physic. Because I had "predicted" the future. I just used observation and logic to determine the most likely outcome. Anyway I thought there has to be a better way to convey the information. So I would tell them a story about a past experience.

Example: Hold on I need to tell you something. Before I saw another person trying to do A. They did this and B happened. So if you are going to try A you may want to be careful B doesn't happen to you.

Or I see you believe A is real? I used to believe that, but some friends of mine and I were discussing it and we determined we believe A is an illusion. This invokes the group mentality and peer pressure. It increases the chance of them at least considering the idea.

This is better than the direct approach. Your wrong and I can prove it. This leads to a defensive reaction. In this situation people may be hesitant to admit they are wrong even if you do prove it because of the perception of being attacked.

Weather you are trying to teach people or sell them something. The way you approach them can make or break the situation. A saying.
Speak to the dog
In the launguage of the dog
About the dog.

This basically means make what you are saying relatable to your audience.   

[INTP]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29

[sakoz]

pljames; "....how to persuade others they are living a illusion." Your question is excellent. HOW did 'you' recognize living a illusion? Start by describing that rather than 'persuading'.
Can others replicate how you recognized 'illusions'? A factual description is more convincing than explanations, (try both).

[pljames]

How about Aristotle. He was a teacher of philosophy. If one of his students didn't understand the lesson he would relate another lesson so the student could understand it better. In any debate knowledge of the subject and the debater are necessary to come to a final proved conclusion. In psychology knowing your art and your patient is necessary to think about how they (the patient) approached their problem. To create in them (thinking about their problem) while leading them to understand themselves better. Thoughts?

[sakoz]

pljames; good point. isn't your goal to help people recognize the biggest illusion of all; that ego is not real? In over two thousand years very few 'live' that realization. Our goal is similar, you want to go right to the 'crux' of the matter; my goal is more modest. Just to help people recognize that when they 'unwittingly' believe a image is real, they create  illusion/hallucination to which their involuntary nervous system responds. When the image believed is 'detrimental', they suffer emotionally and behave dysfunctionally; when the image believed is 'benefical' they enjoy the experience of reacting to it. My example is the placebo effect, the image believed is NOT real yet the consequences are benefical, pain relief, healing. The Law of Attraction is based on believing "positive/benefical" images. BELIEVING DOES WORK, no doubt about that.There are physiological/visceral effects from believing, we have polygraph and bio-feed back devices to prove the effects of believing. The point is the WHAT thoughts/images believed. There's also nocebo effects of believing. Like stress, psychosomatics. Therapy is "booming" because people don't recognize "believing'  unhelpful/useless images as if real, and they pay a emotional price.
Every species are 'good' at something, (a specialty) for humans it's 'thinking'. But note, no matter how many thoughts we think per day, only the BELIEVED ones are REACTED to/experienced.
BELIEVING is crucial, do you want to do it by default/habit/automatically? Most people do just that.

[pljames]

Using different approachs to allowing the patient to explain what they are experiencing is one therapy. To create a thought they can work with to better understand the difference between a illusion and reality is another thearpy. The first therapy points toward the second therapy and then devise a planned therapy for a recovery. Thoughts please? pl

[sakoz]

pljames; Do you want to do therapy as a way to further share your discovery/enlightenment? Can you tell us more 'what/how' your 'discovery occurred to you? How is your life different now? Or the change is subjective/internal. Words are limiting, notice how few even reply to your "grand discovery' even though many read what you write.

[pljames]

I do not have a degree in psychology but have much experience in mental health. I read a lot and my wife was a psche major. I got interested in mnd over matter and got hooked. Read everything I could get my hands on then began to see the ego as a problem. I see and understand people and the world differently because of my studying. I am now more internal at the moment than yesterday today or tommorro. I love language (English) and have my own style. I now am beholding to this forum and folks like you. pl

pljames; Do you want to do therapy as a way to further share your discovery/enlightenment? Can you tell us more 'what/how' your 'discovery occurred to you? How is your life different now? Or the change is subjective/internal. Words are limiting, notice how few even reply to your "grand discovery' even though many read what you write.

[sakoz]

'Ego' is illusionary.  How is that recognized?  By witnessing/observing the 'ego'. Where does the observing/witnessing come from to do the recognizing?
In order to recognize 'ego' as illusion it is transcended, ('transcend': to go beyond the limits:-Webster) A analogy would be Aladdin's bottle. When the 'genie' comes out of the bottle, the genie can then witness/observe the bottle from OUTSIDE. The 'ego' is not a bottle but a conceptual construct. Sigmund Freud 'theorized' the concept of 'ego'.
Dictionary definition of the word 'illusion': unreal image. That is, there's no real, empirical referent/thing to match the image, but there is a 'image' only. Are there any other such concepts,images? Four examples are: mermaid, unicorn, centaur, leprechaun. There's no factual referents for these concept/images.
In order to 'transcend ego', implies "observing/witnessing consciousness" was INSIDE prior to transcending 'ego'. While 'inside ego' this cannot be seen, the view from inside is not the same as from outside. Perspective must shift or transcend. Intellectual understanding is not the same as direct experience/realization.
pljames, when you wrote; " my mind was reeling", did you mean from witnessing 'ego' from 'outside the ego'? For those readers who have not yet 'experienced/realized/recognized' your ego.
Consider this; think of a image. You see the image you picked,  in your "minds eye'. Who/how is the image being witnessed/observed? Not with your physical eyes. In this case the witness/observer is not IN the image, the image is IN the witnessing consciousness. ( Think on this.) ( Consciousness analogous to light? I asked in other thread.)
"Ego" is a conceptual construct; concepts are 'made' of language, language is 'made' of thought or is it VICE VERSA? In any case there's "entanglement". There's no need to invoke religion or spirit,
UNLESS you consider/believe 'consciousness' AS spirit. Buddha did not consider his philosophy as religion (as far as I know.)
Not to be overlooked is that 'ego' is very useful and necessary as ARTIFACT as a servant, not as master. In Zen they say; "before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water."

[sakoz]

pert-5; Good to see you reply. "Ego will end." (Hopefully not before body dies.) Yes 'ego will end' when the body dies. "it is still part of eternity." (eternity does not end.)
So I understand you to mean e=mc2. Ego is made of 'formless energy', so when ego ends as ego,  it returns/recycled into 'formless enery' as eternal.

If any reader believes "transcending ego" is tantamount to 'killing' ego, you can see that's NOT what occurred to pljames.

[pljames]

Ego is spiritually invisible just like the wind (and just because we can't see it does not mean it doesn't exist). It is and lives in my unconcious mind (but still spiritually invisble). Emotions come from mind and body which are invisible (until) we give them life (tears hate love etc). I was beside (shocked) myself when I discovered my invisible unconcious ego was allowing me to live a illusionary reality instead of me being in control.

I allowed it by my negativity which I believed. I believe we can create life from our mind and language. I heard we are spiritual beings having a human experience. I am still studying that one. pl

'Ego' is illusionary.  How is that recognized?  By witnessing/observing the 'ego'. Where does the observing/witnessing come from to do the recognizing?
In order to recognize 'ego' as illusion it is transcended, ('transcend': to go beyond the limits:-Webster) A analogy would be Aladdin's bottle. When the 'genie' comes out of the bottle, the genie can then witness/observe the bottle from OUTSIDE. The 'ego' is not a bottle but a conceptual construct. Sigmund Freud 'theorized' the concept of 'ego'.
Dictionary definition of the word 'illusion': unreal image. That is, there's no real, empirical referent/thing to match the image, but there is a 'image' only. Are there any other such concepts,images? Four examples are: mermaid, unicorn, centaur, leprechaun. There's no factual referents for these concept/images.
In order to 'transcend ego', implies "observing/witnessing consciousness" was INSIDE prior to transcending 'ego'. While 'inside ego' this cannot be seen, the view from inside is not the same as from outside. Perspective must shift or transcend. Intellectual understanding is not the same as direct experience/realization.
pljames, when you wrote; " my mind was reeling", did you mean from witnessing 'ego' from 'outside the ego'? For those readers who have not yet 'experienced/realized/recognized' your ego.
Consider this; think of a image. You see the image you picked,  in your "minds eye'. Who/how is the image being witnessed/observed? Not with your physical eyes. In this case the witness/observer is not IN the image, the image is IN the witnessing consciousness. ( Think on this.) ( Consciousness analogous to light? I asked in other thread.)
"Ego" is a conceptual construct; concepts are 'made' of language, language is 'made' of thought or is it VICE VERSA? In any case there's "entanglement". There's no need to invoke religion or spirit,
UNLESS you consider/believe 'consciousness' AS spirit. Buddha did not consider his philosophy as religion (as far as I know.)
Not to be overlooked is that 'ego' is very useful and necessary as ARTIFACT as a servant, not as master. In Zen they say; "before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water."

[sakoz]

Language is 'like' a mesh/filter. Both speaker and listener; writer and reader are 'behind' one, making for 'double mesh/filter'. I'll try to decipher your post #25.
Can you elaborate or clarify what you wrote? Maybe some other reader who understood you, can translate for me?

[pljames]

One cannot see their ego. It is a mind thing. But Psychologiclly it makes sense that we have one. Metaphysics also play a roll in the ego,id or superego. The mind is like the universe ifinite and dark. God created the earth and our universe with just by speaking it into existence. Since we to were created by God (Adam and Eve) we to have the power to create with our mind thoughts and words. I cannot see the air until either smoke or the trees  until they are move by the wind.

I now believe in the spiritual nature of our being. The invisible part. We have emotions but cannot see them until they manifest themselves in our face and body actions. The ego is the same thing a unconciousness until our negativity and our words from our conciousness goto sleep and our unconcious wakes up and analyses what we saw said and believed doing our concious awakeness while we were awake. I cannot see the air around me yet I feel it. Try that and let me know what you think? pl

[sakoz]

Thank you. That additional information helps a lot.

What I would like to point out to everyone; pljames you shared with us your profound experience/ realization/ enlightenment. Such experience does not change the belief system as therapy might.
The evolution vs. creation is not resolved as a result of the 'experience'; those beliefs remain intact. That puzzles me; how much "truth" is revealed during such experience? It appears it's ego and thought recognition, that is, the 'actual' relationship of ego and consciousness are revealed? Which in of itself is empowering. Who else has experienced what pljames has?

[S. Earl Martin]

On some level all of life is an illusion. So is time. We only have the ability to comprehend a limited amount of our reality. Our understanding of how things work and what is really going on is actually very small. Think about how complex something is. Imagine trying to verbally discribe every detail of any experience. It would be impossible because as you are discribing the details are changing. So to fully understand who we are and why we do what we do would also be impossible. We just have to do the best we can.

As far as experienceing a similar experience okay. When I was younger I would do things that in my mind where selfless acts. I would give people things or do things to help people. One day I realized it wasn't selfless at all because I always had some plan as to how the act would help me. Either in business or my personal life. It was meant to impress other people or to make someone indebted to me. Or even to impress God. After reading about other people who really did selfless acts I realized the difference. Now I do these things without expecting anything in return. I realized the error or illusion as it were. This is just part of growing as a person. No matter how much we learn there is always more to learn. No matter how many questions we answer it just leads to more questions. Our ego or self image is changing everytime we learn something new. Or we experience something new. It changes due to our surroundings or even the cloths we are wearing.
I have known people who were in management that would never dress in casual cloths. Sport shirt and slaxs always shaved. Or a suit. Just in case any of their employees saw them. This way they maintained their professional image not only with other people, but with themselves. They were still the same person. This is why the Nazis stripped the Jews before killing them to take away their social standing.