Is it possible to "think" without "imagining"?

[tom.robinson11]

Is it possible to "think" without "imagining"?
Can you have thoughts without making a mental "picture" of it in your mind?

If not, then how does a regular blind man "think"? (Assuming that he has been blind since birth.)
If a person was blind since birth, they would have no concept of "imagery" or what things "look like". Therefore, they wouldn't know that "images" exist - and it would be near impossible to explain it to them. A blind person is just "aware" that things exist. I mean, you could argue that the blind guy has an "imagination" and can just make up pictures in his mind as he touches/senses things...

BUT, is "imagination" a "learned trait"?

How can you create images in your mind, if you don't know what images are? To fully understand what images are, you need to be able to "see", right?

How does a blind guy, who has been blind since birth, read braille and follow text without imagining the story in his head?

Also, can a blind guy, who has been blind since birth, recognise objects - I know they can.. but I mean it in this kind of context ---> Say you give him a football, he feels the football and implants the "feeling" of a football in his brain. If he was to undergo treatment to completely restore his eyesight, would he be able to just look at a football and identify it as a football without touching it? (I hope that made sense)

I know I probably sound ignorant.. but I'm genuinely curious..
Serious answers/theories, please.

Thanks!

[gone]

In general people think differently. For example mathemeticians see the world very differently and in mathematical form, these genuis mathemeticians (often on the ASD scale Autistic Spectrum Disorder) will imagine not in 'images' (as I think is what you mean) but will think in 'order, numbers, geometry, etc'.. and not 'pictures'...
That is one example, we do not all think in 'imagery'.. For example a football, say 'football' to someone an they don't all 'see an image of a football' the word 'football' has different connotations to different people. If you said 'see a picture of a football in your mind and describe it' that is more precise, but not everybody would be able to 'visualise' a football. It is not the norm, to think in 'images'..
Blind people learn a lot by touch, for example the may feel a football and tag words to it, round, globe, sphere, bounce, full of air etc... Cotton wool would be touched along with words like 'billoughy' fluffly, soft, like clouds in the sky.. so blind people develop a world of 'association' from descriptive language, very different to a visual world.
Now if you take it further and think of a blind, deaf and mute person, who can not see, hear or communicate with language. Will they think in 'images' too? Not likely. Their world will be mostly about touch. They can learn to communcate with touch, but without language will this person be able to 'think'? As Descartes said 'Is consciously possible without language'...

[SWM]

as a further example musicians may think with sounds more than images.

[sakoz]

Tom; Are you familar with the 'just hatched duckling' experiment? The experimenters 'rigged up' a wire (experimenters hid behind a curtain). They suspended a cardboard silhouette from the wire, with another finer wire they were able to pull the silhouette from one side to the other, without turning the figure around. When pulled in one direction, the silhouete looked like a adult duck in flight; when pulled back in other direction, it now looked like a adult hawk in flight. The ducklings crouched/cowered/ cringed. Remember they were just born and have never before seen a hawk. (the ducklings stood up when the sillhouette looked like a adult duck).
I searched the web for answer to following question; " Do the blind see images?" You will find impressive articles. "Do the blind dream?" etc.

How can anyone possibly learn a language without concomitant images? Don't mistake covert/subliminal images as NO IMAGES. ( I went to great length posting about unrecognized BELIVED IMAGES causing much emotional suffering, dysfunctional behavior, stress, mistakes, psychosomatics, etc. etc.)
Even mathematicians have to memorize pictorial symbols in order to recall and use them.

[gone]

Yes the music is also a good example. Some people interpret things as sounds, bad emotions may be symbols crashing, being in love a flute etc... I also remember a documentary about an autistic person who associated and saw things in colours. Very few people are born blind, very few people are actually blind, those registered blind may have vision imparment that has developed later in life, but few people are born blind and few people go completely blind. I think to explore thinking and images would be to explore autism, as they seldom think in 'images'..

What I have also found interesting & recognised when I was a child is when drawing a picture. Example drawing a house. I do not picture a house in my mind then reproduce this with pencil on paper. I think a house is square and has a triangle roof and has windows and a door. I can be creative and modify this to create an origian or very attractive house, but that is what I work from. I am an 'artist' and I never imagine a house then draw it. It just develops into a house from my recognision of symbols/shapes and the place they go to give the impression of a house, but ultimately it's just pen markings on paper. Not a house.

[SWM]

interesting. I went to university to study illustration but dropped out due to having my first pychotic episode.

when i want to draw something it is possible that i "see" the fully formed image in my mind. for example if i want to draw a car, i can see the complete 3 dimensional car i could rotate it and change the image in my mind and then copy it from my head to the paper.

[Zepher08]

I agree with sound/music since I have dreams in sound w/out visual images. Also in waking where it is all sound in head and no pictures. But actually those are mental pictures ... sound organizations rather than visual organization. Now the sound theme doesn't work .

[gone]

I've wondered if it's possible to teach people to draw.
If you like art I recommend you view one of my favourite pages, please view the photo's and enjoy.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Museum-of-Poor-Art/185732899705 that doesn't work, log into facebook and search MOPA or Museum of Poor Art

I do a lot of work in the 'arts' and when I set design for example I visualise that in entirety. When I film-make I visualise that too in entirity, from camera angles to expressions.. When I write I don't visualise it but compartment it.. It's very interesting & something I'd like explore further.

What's a psychotic episode like. Or what was the first one like you mention above? I'm interested to know. Just yesturday I wondered if this forum has become a haven for those a bit 'different' and upon thinking that, wondered if that's why I am here.. are we all crazy? (crazy in a good way of course - you don't get interesting conversations like this down the pub/hairdressers).. Am I as mad as you lot?

[pljames]

I hear my thoughts but I cannot see (image) them accept on paper or this screen. Why do I hear my thoughts in the first place? pljames

[sakoz]

pljames; You familar with Helen Keller? ( see the movie instead of reading about her). Helen 'went' blind and deaf at age 19 months. Did not learn language at that age. The sounds she made were as meaningless as 'glossolalia.' At the age of 7; she behaved as 'feral' until Ann Sullavan, who became her teacher, taught her language. Helen went on to college, wrote a book. Interesting.

[S. Earl Martin]

My wife worked with Deaf people and mentally challenged people. I asked different deaf people how they think. I explained that when I think I hear words in my head. " I need to buy coffee." Or " I forgot to feed the cat" etc. I asked them how it works for them. The deaf people as well as some of the mentally challenged people told me they don't hear words. Or see hands signing. That they see pictures of the action. I also asked a blind person what they "see". They have never seen anything like we see, but they have a perception of things in their mind. They couldn't tell me what it was like, but told me it is the same as how they remember the lay out of a room. They also hear words in their head like I do.

I also find the make up of the people on this sight very interesting. The varity of opinions and the knowledge shared is quit intertaining. LOL!