Personal Empowerment

[sakoz]

How many cells in our body? Wikipedia says 50 to 75 trillion cells in our body. They are collectively tuned into one. Can we tune into them? They know how to adapt.
Can we get info from them? They are analogous to the submicroscopic atomic level.
Even if this is only a placebo belief that they are collectively at our disposal; what a empowering belief. The only belief more empowering is to be able to tap  the nuclear substrata of the universe. Scientists are already doing just that. Now its our turn, (laymen). If we only access our personal memory/learnings; what a meager/impoverished source; but we do have the internet but that is not therapeutic.

[sakoz]

(This would be better if I had posted it before the about post,)
I have alleged we have innate psychological healing capacity akin to physical healing. (Not my original idea). Most, if not all of you don't believe you have that innate capacity.
I am referring to 'believing'.  By believing that believing does not work, you effectively use believing to thwart your consciously using it further. It goes 'underground' and works covertly, to your chagrin. ( see slinkysallys reply #7 in my post, 'The Apex of Conditioning", and my #9 there also).
'believing' seems like such a insubstantial/nebulous process, but its effects are very substantial experience (emotions, behavior, stress, mistakes). Some of you require something tangible as a 'spring board' to believing me. Now the post above about cells should have followed here. I refer to "Collective Cellular Intelligence". How do we experience collective cellular intelligence?
In the form of insight/aha thoughts. We easily recognize such thoughts as not coming from memory/conditioning, these insights are new, original.
I can't prove whether there is such "Collective Cellular Intelligence" but neither can you disprove it. Therefore it's the ideal 'placebo belief' we can consciously believe and use by choice.
Too many beliefs are covert, and so we have no choice in their effects that we experience.

[sakoz]

  "Something To Believe"
I postulated "Collective Cellular Intelligence". I can't prove whether such exists, but neither can it be disproved, (at this time). That makes this concept the ideal placebo belief.
This makes it possible to consciously replicate placebo effect for and on oneself. We can sincerely believe we have access to a intelligence heretofore not recognized and now accessible.
This could be the "Road To Creativity". Believing this intelligence exits, like believing the inert pill was medicine, we can produce results we want to experience rather than by default.(without surprise).
To the critics who will say that they are not gullible; I retort; "Yes you are".  "By believing that believing does not work, you effectively use believing to thwart your consciously using it."
It then goes underground, working covertly.  You cannot not 'believe'.  You consciously or unconsciosly 'believe' your criticisms, ( you so freely dispense).

[sakoz]

Spontaneous and Conditioned Thoughts: both come from 'behind the scenes'; both operate/function automatically. So what's the difference?  Source/Origin.
What happens when you ask; " What will my next thought be?" This question demonstrates that thoughts do indeed , come from 'behind the scenes'.
Conditioned thoughts come from memory ( sometimes automatically, sometimes we deliberately access some; pre-conceptions. habits, bias.)
Spontaneous thoughts come as insight/aha; there's always an element of surprise, because they are new/original, not known prior to their arrival.
Info from memory is  known, that's why you access some. Insight/aha, intuition, new understanding. You can't know what or if it's coming till it arrives, hence the surprise.
We use thoughts, irrespective whence they come. Enpowerment is the result of recognition of the option of choice; that there is a choice possible.
Conditioned thought reactions are predictable. There's reactions associated with such thoughts.

What are you going to do with this information you just read? Verify it? See if it 'holds true' in your experience? This is not pablum, unless you believe it is. What determines your believing?
Your memory? Do you not believe what is not compatible with what you already believe? That's how to maintain your status quo.
As youngsters, we did not learn to learn how to walk and talk. You call that 'instinct'? Doing so, means you don't access instinct, it functions automatically; you block youself off from using spontaneous thinking as if it can only be serendipitous. Another example of misusing 'believing'.
How do you know the source of your current thoughts, besides surprise? The quality of your emotions.

[sakoz]

We are endowed with natural intelligence. It's subliminal, so we only know it exists is by it's effects. Primarily by insights/aha thoughts and /or by high quality emotions.
The information we learned, introjected, usurps, overrides our natural intelligence. You can note/verify for yourself how quickly your conditioned thoughts and reactions from memory take  precedence over natural intelligence. You might even doubt it exists, except for the few insights/ahas that manage to emerge/squeeze through/past the 'blockade' of what we already know, etc.

[sakoz]

Is Consciousness a entity/agency or utility/function or neutral observer?
1. If entity/agency, is it autonomous or do we direct it?
2. If utility/function, how do we direct it?
3. If neutral witness, then is that who we truly are?

[sakoz]

As indicated in #4 above; there's a learned and a natural perspective. If you don't recognize the natural, then you been and can only 'operate' from one perspective your familar with.
You can't shift perspective if you don't recognize there is another/alternative.

[sakoz]

Unrecognized; Unwittingly; Subliminal 'Believing' is a major cause of emotional suffering. Here I submit a conscious use of believing for Personal Empowerment.
Insights 'occur' to us, we dont volitionally think them into being nor access them.
Is Evolution still around? Did it disappear? Can it disappear from the earth? Is it subliminal in us? What really 'delivers' insights to us? We can call Evolution our Natural Intelligence.
Considering everything evolution produced; surely it can provide us with insights galore. ( if we open to recieve).
Believing evolution provides us with insights is Empowering;- try it.

[sakoz]

Matthew 13:12   - This is why I speak to them in parables. "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing they do not hear or understand."

We can't see our subliminal thinking process before thoughts form, but we can infer what's going on "behind the scenes". We wanted such inferences and they come.
That indicates we 'can' determine what  forms and comes from "there". Awesome.

[S. Earl Martin]

Sakoz: I said before. We can get insight into our subconscious, but at the point of realization it becomes conscious. The very act of thinking about it and becoming aware of it makes us conscious of it. Now I have still been thinking about this. I think it is possible we may be able to access what you are refering to in a dream state or in an unconscious state and have it not become a conscious process. Otherwise it would have to be conscious.

Now Jesus was talking about the path to Heaven or salvation. That he used parables to teach people by example. This is because this was the standard teaching technique of His day. Most people couldn't read or write. So pictures and examples were used so they could understand. Much the same way we us more pictures or the red circle with the slash across to mean no today. The deciples were trying to pin Him down to telling them in a way that was also a common belief in their day. The people then were not trained in science and logic. They still believed in majic words and spells and charms. They wanted to know the "secret" so to speak. Even today there are sects that believe the name Jesus is like a magic word and just saying it the right way will cause miricles to happen. The bible points out that people tried to use His name in His time and after His death. It worked for some and not for others. This is because it requires a right spirit to work. Your heart and soul must be pure and your intent must be selfless. There are people who can work miricles even today, but they are becoming fewer and fewer. Most of them are fakes.

Still don't see a purpose or a point to what you are saying? I have tried to find one. For some reason I can't stop thinking about this. I mean I don't dwell on it, but it just pops in my head sometimes and I start thinking about how it could be used in a constructive way. Keep trying my friend. I do see that your statements are more clear and you are using more intellectual examples. This is good because at first I had no idea what you were talking about. Now I at least can see where you are attempting to go with this. Peace.

[S. Earl Martin]

Also an example of the specific scripture you quoted. I can see evidence of God all around me. Sometimes I try and express this to someone else. They see the same thing that I see, but see no evidence of God. Through seeing they do not see. This is also addressing a belief from His day, that still exists today. That all people really go to Heaven. That Hell doesn't really exist. This is not what the Bible says. Some people will change their life and will enter Heaven. Others will not and will reject God. They choose to go to Hell. Some see and hear. Some do not.

[sakoz]

I'm interested in relieving/avoiding ,when possible, emotional suffering , mistakes, stress etc. Not salvation, but rather therapeutics. I only quoted scripture because it referred to not understanding.- What do we use to understand 'thinking'? We use thoughts that come from the unconscious we're trying to understand.
 A analogy: If you had a machine producing defective products; would your intervention consist of re-work/repair rather than correcting the source? That's not efficious.
Thoughts originate in/from the unconscious, Thoughts coming from there are used to investigate/probe the unconscious itself. That's also the means of cybernetic, self-correcting feed-back to stay on course. If you don't believe we are so designed; would you agree that would be a good method/design?
Changing thought at the point of thinking them at inception rather than remedial method, now in vogue, after being used to cause suffering, mistakes, stress. "Making them right the first time."

[S. Earl Martin]

I do not disagree with your premiss that correcting errors or inaccurate thoughts at the point of origin would be the most benificial. I just question how this would be practical or even possible. Given human limitations. If I believe something I need some comparative analysis. Some other information or event that triggers awareness of an error in my belief system. I have to have a motivating factor to initiate change. If a machine is operating incorrectly? It will continue to do so unless the problem is realized and corrective measures are taken. The key is realization. I have to be aware change is needed. Otherwise the error will continue.

I to have a desire to end human suffering and to strive for truth and correct information formulation.

As far as probing the unconscious? To correct mistakes at the source? Probing the unconscious is difficult in of itself. It is also very time consuming. Also there are things in there that can be painful or confusing. I have given you several possibilities as to how this could be accomplished. I have another one. If you were connected to a computer interphase? It in theory could check all your thoughts and actions for accuracy. Personally I would rather die than be connected directly to a computer, but it would be a possible solution.

[sakoz]

Earl; You probably won't agree with this, but consider it.  The machine analogy; suppose the 'machine' is in another room you don't have access to. The machines 'products' enter via a chute to the room your in. You also have a feed-back device like a phone. The machine can correct itself if you tell it to.
Unlike the machine; emotions precede the thoughts, sometimes the thoughts don't even show up but the emotions always do. Your emotions signal the quality of thought being produced.
You can communicate your desire for  diferent quality of thoughts. (No offence taken if you say this is "far fetched", even if you call it 'crazy'.)
You would rather die than be connected directly to a computer; I can relate to that. My wife and I have papers with our HMO that we don't want life support systems.Where did the idea of being  connected to a computer come from? May I point out we think ideas and then react to them, so we ought to be discerning what we chosse to think and believe; that's my whole  "thesis or tenet''.

[S. Earl Martin]

That was my point about the computer connection. You in theory could set it to monitor your thoughts emotions, actions and beliefs so that they force you to only react with in a certain perameter. Mind control in other words. Technology is very near to this if it isn't already there.

I disagree that emotions always show up. That may be the case for you, but I am not a very emotional person most of the time. I am very factual and logical. Very seldom do I react to emotion. I am supposed to get another infusion next week so we will see what happens. It messes with my hormones and effects my patience and emotions.

In your analogy of the machine you say.

 

Earl; You probably won't agree with this, but consider it.  The machine analogy; suppose the 'machine' is in another room you don't have access to. The machines 'products' enter via a chute to the room your in. You also have a feed-back device like a phone. The machine can correct itself if you tell it to.

if you tell it to? This is my previous point. You would have to be conscious of the process to tell it to. You can't correct subconscious thoughts and emotions. Because you have to be aware of them to correct them.

I do agree we should use forthought. We should be aware of the potential harm we can cause just as we are aware of the potential good.

[S. Earl Martin]

I don't know what happened to the last part of my post. I had a quote there, but it highlighted the quote and the rest of my message???

[sakoz]

"You can't correct subconscious thoughts and emotions because you have to be aware of them to correct them." We differ on this point.
1st. You never 'correct' emotions; emotions are always correct and consistent with the beliefs they are reactions to. It's the thoughts that provoke/evoke emotions. I'm adamant about this.
2nd. Emotions are the signal that the thought is unacceptable; if the subconscious made the first thought, (rejected) it certainly can make a second, acceptable one, so trust it.
You rely too much on intellect/ego/self-concept, etc, in my opinion. Evolution or God brought us this far , don't 'snub' now. No wonder the story about getting kicked out of Eden was made.

[S. Earl Martin]

I disagree that emotions are always correct with the thought etc. I have seen people who react "strangely" to situations. It is possible they are suffering from a mental illness to a degree, but it would depend on how you define "correct"? Is watching someone fall down and laughing at them in pain "correct"? It is a matter of opinion. Is laughing at a dog rolling in the street after it has been hit by a car "correct"? Is laughing at people being tortured or raped "correct"? It varies between what we or society excepts as normal. So to say that the emotion is always in line with the thought is debatable.

I further disagree to an extent, that the subconscious "makes the emotion". Where emotion comes from would depend on the situation. Some emotions are a subconscious reaction. I will grant you that, but some are a conscious reaction also to an extent. Or A reaction to a known stimule at least. If I am watching a comedy I laugh somewhat instinctivly. I am not thinking okay I need to laugh. If I react to pain again it is not a conscious reaction per say. I feel pain and react. So how would you propose this reprograming of emotions into an acceptble form be done? If this could actually be done it could help some people who suffer from mental illness. Psychopaths react to their actions with joy at causing pain to others. Etc. Some people cry instead of laugh.

[sakoz]

Earl;Your using your analytical ability overtime.  Because I don't agree with your premise, I won't address each of your specific beliefs derived from that premise.
You ask; how do I propose to reprogam emotions? Emotions are not reprogammable;- believed thoughts are. Emotions are reactions to believed thoughts;(no matter how subliminal some beliefs are).
What I been proposing is overriding conditioned/habits from a higher perspective, not reprogramming any. We manage some programmed habits, like brushing teeth, we don't brush teeth in church. We even can regulate involuntary functions like bladder and bowel emptying. From a higher perspective we can 'manage/control'. Pavlovs dogs had no control of their condditioning.
We could have said; "Hey Ivan, the sound of your bell is not food.

[S. Earl Martin]

I understand what you are saying, but I still have some problems with the method of how this would be accomplished? "Higher perspective"? I still see the problem that you need to be aware of the needed change in order to make it. So you are proposing overriding our basic belief structure. In order to change our emotional reaction to our believed thoughts? It is an interesting concept. I am still not sure how it could be accomplished in a practical sense. It would take awareness of the process on a scale most people wouldn't have. Sorry I still think this is beyond what is practial by todays standards. Although I am not saying it is impossible. Keep thinking about how this could be accomplished and I will do the same. Peace!

[S. Earl Martin]

I have been thinking of a practical application of what you are proposing and I thought. Religion and education actually do what you are proposing. This also would be the higher perspective you are refering to in a way? In both religion and education you might not be aware of the changes needed to be made, but the process changes your perspective even if you are not aware of it?

Before I was thinking about someone accomplishing this on a personal level. I thought you would have to be aware of what changes needed to be made in order to make them, but you can't be aware of them unless you can see the process in a detail that can't be achieved on a personal level. So I was thinking could someone be taught or educated to do this? That is when it occured to me that is what happens with education and religion. You go in not knowing what changes need to be made, but the process teaches you what changes need to be made and gives you a method to make them. This changes your core beliefs and how you react to it emotionally.   

[sakoz]

Good point, but religion and education are "outside" of us, I referring to a 'higher perspective'  you introspectively experience.
You already know how you learned to walk and talk(or you think you know and you believe what you know.) Would you say we're 'hard-wired', instinct to walk and talk? If so , then those 'programs' are still intact. Howmany more times will we learn to walk? Amputees and paralized folks need to keep those programs intact. O.K. granted. How about learning language?
Why is it so difficult to learn another language? We learned the first one so easily, it was almost  playful; effortless; that  program is still intact? How come not accesssed?
There's more we do not yet understand.
I suspect your a religious man. How about having faith that maybe I'm right about we all have a innate intelligence that was itself overriden by 'school learning"? We can reconnect.
Would it be presumptuous to imply 'I' get some ideas from there? Some  of "my"(?) ideas arenot derived nor sythesized from my memory.

[S. Earl Martin]

I agree that in many ways we are born a clean slate, but outside influences program us to believe and respond a certain way. I don't believe we are born inherently good and learn to be evil or selfish. Babies are some of the most selfish things I have ever experienced. It is all about them.

An example of the inherent knowledge would be animals instinctivly knowing how to do things. I have watched birds that just flew out of the nest first time. Others it may take several times, but they know how to do it from the start. It is just practicial application that takes awhile. I cheat and keep the cats and other preditors away. If the bird doesn't make it first try. I will put it back in the nest so it can try again. Years ago the parants would fly down and try and defend the baby, but after awhile they realize I am trying to help and they will fly around me chirping if one of the babies is on the ground so I will put it back. It is amazing how fast they learn. I have lived here about 30 years and generations of birds have been born here. They will let me know if the bird bath is empty. Or if the feeder is empty. If a cat is bothering them they will fly around me making the cat warning so I will chase it off. 

[sakoz]

Fessing up; S. Earl Martin, SWM and others who read my posts. I am not being understood, I'm not being cogent? I will explain it this way.
I believe that Universal Intelligence (or evolution) is in all of us, similar to electricity flows into light bulbs. That is the source of insights, ahas, epiphanies, understanding, revelations.
I can't prove it, so let's say it's categorically not true, Universal Intelligence/Evolution  dos not exist, in any shape or form nor invisible. I sincerely believe it does, thus my experience.
"Believing" is what produces, (colloquially called) 'placebo effect'.  'Believing' is as much fact as gravity.
Summed up; Believe in the power of your own believing; believing works. It's being misused for nocebo effects; emotional suffering; dysfunctional behaviour, mistakes, stress; etc.

[SWM]

we all have a innate intelligence that was itself overriden by 'school learning"

if this were true then it would also be true that people who had no school learning would be more developed emotionally and psychologically than ourselves.

Fessing up; S. Earl Martin, SWM and others who read my posts. I am not being understood, I'm not being cogent?

no not really. i understand your general concepts but i dont think other people are finding it useful and from my own experience in therapy with patients know that people need more practical applications to their own experience so that they can learn to access their own inner wisdom. just telling them the theory or concept doesnt help.

I believe that Universal Intelligence (or evolution) is in all of us, similar to electricity flows into light bulbs. That is the source of insights, ahas, epiphanies, understanding, revelations.

i believe this too.

I can't prove it, so let's say it's categorically not true, Universal Intelligence/Evolution  dos not exist, in any shape or form nor invisible. I sincerely believe it does, thus my experience. "Believing" is what produces, (colloquially called) 'placebo effect'.  'Believing' is as much fact as gravity.
Summed up; Believe in the power of your own believing; believing works. It's being misused for nocebo effects; emotional suffering; dysfunctional behaviour, mistakes, stress; etc.

this is incoherent. try to structure your ideas a bit better.

[sakoz]

SWM; I still label you a 'stickler' .  Requote; "we all have a innate intelligence that was overriden by 'school learning'". You are very correct, I omitted the crucial part.
Why are those not 'schooled' not " more developed emotionaly and psycholoically than ourselves." Because they learned and use language; that's why.
As a therapist, what are the "tools" of your trade? Language and thought,(that includes images). And what 'part' of your clients do you "tool"? Their 'thoughts'. (CBT specialty).
( I have a post to-day that most of would 'fit' here.) ( your sticklerness  was correct in bringing to my attention that first quote was incomplete, thanks for that part of your reply.

[SWM]

again you are failing to put together your arguments in a logical and coherent way.

SWM; I still label you a 'stickler' .

a label will limit your understanding of me. you will see me through your labels. this is distortion of reality remember.

Requote; "we all have a innate intelligence that was overriden by 'school learning'". You are very correct, I omitted the crucial part.
Why are those not 'schooled' not " more developed emotionaly and psycholoically than ourselves." Because they learned and use language; that's why.

ok, so if these two premises are true then it would also be true that anybody that does not learn and use langauge and has not been schooled will be psychologically and emotionally more developed than ourselves, as would animals.

As a therapist, what are the "tools" of your trade? Language and thought,(that includes images). And what 'part' of your clients do you "tool"? Their 'thoughts'. (CBT specialty).

this sentence does not read well. "what part of my clients do i tool?" this is a similar error to using the word involuntary as though it were a thing or object. you are now using the word tool as though it were an action.

what i imagine you are trying to ask me is what do i try to change in my client. i am trying to change the way they construct and process their reality. thoughts are one of the tools that we can use.

( I have a post to-day that most of would 'fit' here.) ( your sticklerness was correct in bringing to my attention that first quote was incomplete, thanks for that part of your reply.

i am not sure what you mean here.

[sakoz]

SWM;#24  "...I don't think other people are finding it useful...etc." As long as they don't indicate otherwise; your  assumption is reasonable (even if unproven).
#25; " a label will limit your understanding of me, you will see me through your label, that is a distortion of reality remember.' Absolutely, how could I forget? It's a universal  law for humans. What you omitted  to say; " make sure your label is as  accurate as possible, based on the info available to you at the moment. (revisable as more info available).
Einstein once stated; "The world we have made as a result of the LEVEL OF THINKING we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the SAME LEVEL at which we created them."
(my capitalization). Your experience in therapy with patients know that people need more practical application to their own experience. You mean their trying to solve their problems at the same level they created them? Was Einstein just "whistling in the dark"?

[SWM]

 

SWM;#24  "...I don't think other people are finding it useful...etc." As long as they don't indicate otherwise; your  assumption is reasonable (even if unproven).

people have indicated.

" a label will limit your understanding of me, you will see me through your label, that is a distortion of reality remember.' Absolutely, how could I forget? It's a universal  law for humans. What you omitted  to say; " make sure your label is as  accurate as possible, based on the info available to you at the moment. (revisable as more info available).

a universal law for humans! ok, it is lucky that you know that law then.

Einstein once stated; "The world we have made as a result of the LEVEL OF THINKING we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the SAME LEVEL at which we created them."
(my capitalization). Your experience in therapy with patients know that people need more practical application to their own experience. You mean their trying to solve their problems at the same level they created them?

this would be a generalisation but yes i will say that is kind of what i mean.

Was Einstein just "whistling in the dark"?

i thought he played the ukelele.

[sakoz]

I wish more people would participate.' It looks like I'm 'whistling in the dark' or worse than that,  "pissing into the wind".