Religion, philosophy, hermeticism, deep meditation, psychopathology, illness ?

[PAL/SECAM]

I found this text in internet (it isn't mine), and I have thought that it is worth to moot it (I am putting here only part of it, rest you can find at: postst.cjb.net/d-theory.php)

"
(the autor of the text originates from outside of Anglo-Saxon lingual area)

Religion and philosophy as illness

1. All domain of esoterism, of yoga, of meditation can be counted to the area of natural (primeval) religion. It is the same what shamanistic beliefs and practices.

2.  These practices consist in the obtainment of the state of trance, in the same way as meditation.
Trance is the state of waking dream, in the same way one defined schizophrenia and in the same way can be defined paranoid psychosis.

3. Thus this domain does not lead to enlightenment, only psychosis, that is to say illness.

4. The illness appeared at the rising of religion, before tens thousands of years, and the illness appeared on following stage of development of religion and at the rising and during the development of philosophy.

5. All field of religion, and most of philosophy (which is in fact an only certain version of religion) are self-possessed by morbid condition.

6. Exist no supernatural beings, from field of religion stays only reincarnation, but seized unlike till now.

7. Posthumous state is the same what state of sleep (it is a state of unconsciousness), and is not a state of intelligent and goal-directed activity (this is state of unactiveness)

8. After the posthumous "sleep", comes the time on birth and a next life, human holds stably sex and mental level.

9. The law of karma is a fiction, though following incarnations ?continue? previous.

10. Religion should disappear and give place subdomain of psychology interesting in the problem of 'posthumous state' as identical with state of sleep. There should disappear also philosophy and give place scientific studies (theory of science).
 
P.D. (2008)

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resp. 1.
Astrology is the same what the divination from scattered animal bones - so from an aleatorily obtained configuration, the part of bones fulfil planets; ?the accurateness? owes inaccuracy of used categories which each separately are able to contain the cross-section through all problem-areas.  

resp. 2.
The british neurologist Hughlings Jackson (1835-1911) had remarked: "find out all about dreams, and you will find out all about insenity".
In the first years after discovery of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, researchers belived they had acquired a tool for investigation of Haughlings Jackson's premise. They supposed that schizophrenia might represent the intrusion of the dream state into wakefulness, and, therefore, there was the prospect of being able to link dream cognition to psychosis through REM sleep.

In "Psychology and Life" (1977), P.G. Zimbardo, F.L. Ruch (subchapter concerning the sleep and sleepy dreams) we can find information that according to research of W.C.Dement from the sixties of twentieth century, occurrent symptoms of schizophrenia at patients, can be an indication of the activity which normally would find an outlet in the form of sleepy dreams in REM phases.

resp. 3.
from "Religion, culture and mental health" (2006), K.Loewenthal, Cambridge University Press, s. 18-19:
"Peters, Day, McKenna & Orbach (1999) marshal the arguments that ‘certain groups of people have similar experiences to the positive symptoms of schizophrenia’ (notably delusions)...(Jackson & Fulford, 1997). Peters et al. compared members of two types of ... groups (New ReligiousMovements, or NRMs...) with non-religious people, and with psychotic patients suffering from delusions. The NRM members were drawn from the Hare Krishna group and from a Pagan order (Druids). Two measures of delusional thinking were used in this study (which included factors such as persecution, paranormal beliefs and religiosity). The main findings and conclusions from this study were:

* Individuals from the NRMs scored higher than the non-religious on the delusions measures, but scored similarly to the deluded, psychotic group. This score included a measure of ‘florid, psychotic symptoms ... rarely endorsed in the normal population’ (the Delusions Symptoms-State Inventory, DSSI, Foulds & Bedford, 1975).

* NRM members were, however, less distressed and preoccupied by their delusional experiences than were the psychotic patients.
..."

Buddhism for example consists in obtainment of the state of waking dream, which wrongly, similarly how in old shamanism, is taking as enlightenment; further it has to mean going out and the break-up of elements of the mental life - in this it is visible nihilism; in fact the loss of consciousness in the state of nirvana is the same what the loss of consciousness after fall into a sleep, and the only abiding effect is developing paranoid psychosis, the same refers to other forms of yoga.

Paranormal abilities can be explained as disorder of perception of spatiotemporal continuum, so a state of disorders.
"

[anaklio]

This reminds me of an interesting conversation I overheard yesterday between a self described "born again" and a self described "agnostic" which is paraphrased here.

born again: Do you accept God?
agnostic: I'm not sure God exists.
born again: You just don't get it.
agnostic: And you have a tumor.

[Enigma]

2.  These practices consist in the obtainment of the state of trance, in the same way as meditation.
Trance is the state of waking dream, in the same way one defined schizophrenia and in the same way can be defined paranoid psychosis.

3. Thus this domain does not lead to enlightenment, only psychosis, that is to say illness.

You are on the inside looking out.  You need to be on the outside looking in.

[SWM]

who ever has wrote this does not understand psychosis.

The problem with the above proposition is that in a psychotic illness one of the qualifying factors for a diagnosis is distress or dysfunction caused by the delusion/ hallucinations.

[PAL/SECAM]

I did not write this text but I will try to be its advocate -

This reminds me of an interesting conversation I overheard yesterday between a self described "born again" and a self described "agnostic"

the problem surely consist in that both agnostic as and born again - partly they make a mistake and partly are right - agnostic is right when doubts in existence of God and he makes a mistake when he doubts in reincarnation, and born again is right when believes in the reincarnation, but he makes a mistake when he believes in God

'You are on the inside looking out. You need to be on the outside looking in.'

I think that 'you should be both inside and outside to see objectively' and I think that author is on both sides

who ever has wrote this does not understand psychosis.

The problem with the above proposition is that in a psychotic illness one of the qualifying factors for a diagnosis is distress or dysfunction caused by the delusion/ hallucinations

I met some theosophists which affirmed that the master from far east which lives in hiding represents the occultist hierarchies and so called white army (the great white brotherhood) - he gives to them by remote control some exercises, but they didn't hear any voices they felt it - whether these are not paranoid delusions ?

If we are speaking about diagnosis, not always is possible to ascertain social dysfunctions though appear psychological dysfunctions (but ill person is most often unconscious of this)  - similar situation happens in case of paranoia when ill person can quite efficiently function socially and rarely has contact with psychiatrist (famous example - Hitler)

so paranoia occurs but is rarely clinically diagnosed, the same paranoid psychosis (only almost all cases of schizophrenia are clinically diagnosed - according to rest of the article which you can find at indicated site)

[anaklio]

And your evidence for re-incarnation is ?

[PAL/SECAM]

occurrence of this process seems very probable

[anaklio]

It's impossible to prove that it's impossible, but showing that it is probable is very difficult.

As I noted elsewhere on this forum, if you open your mind, it's already happening. We die, break down into tiny particles, these reform into new life forms. Yet this is a far cry from being re-incarnated as a frog in a different time ;-)

[PAL/SECAM]

but with the idea of reincarnation it is necessary probably to adopt some (few) elements of esoteric psychology, but understood unlike till now - such as existence of soul and spirit
human after death "sleeps" having subtle form, and after breakup of soul comes back to next incarnation (spirit stays a constant component of the all process)

[anaklio]

Yeah, that's the tricky part. If we define "soul" narrowly as something like self awareness, we can localize it in the brain. (This is being worked on right now, and progress is being made.) But as we start to add concepts which persist after death, it becomes more problematic.

Many things were once beyond our realm. For example, ultrasound and xrays were once undetectable by humans. However, we now have a pretty complete spectrum. Suggesting that frequencies still remain undetected by our instruments seems a reach.

Yet, many mysteries remain so re-incarnation remains possible. But it's difficult for me to understand why people would believe in it today in the absence of evidence. Yet that's no different than Christianity or Atheism as all of these beliefs require a "leap in faith".

[NY Iago]

I would like to mention Michael Foucault at this point. He warned against the medicalisation of human mental phenomena, as it may easily represent the socio-cultural mores of a given society. In this case, the mores would be the atheistic view of religion.

It is important to distinguish between a psychological malaise and a sociological construct. Heck I could argue that religion is a self-defense mechanism against the existential vicissitudes of life: multiple interpretations are possible. This is an epistemological issue. The problem is that such theories are not very open to impartial empirical analysis - they are not readily falsifiable or verifiable.

Of course, religion COULD be an 'illness', but we should guard against the unconscious interpretation of others' values in terms of our norms. Let us not create an illness where none exists.

[voodoo scientist]

I like to jest around with calling religious people delusional, but really, let's keep it at the joke level - religion and experiencing of the divine is an established fact. That is, people really do experience it, because our brain has the capacity for feeling that, regardless of the actual existence of the divine. It certainly has nothing to do with real psychosis or paranoia.

[PAL/SECAM]

Many things were once beyond our realm. For example, ultrasound and xrays were once undetectable by humans. However, we now have a pretty complete spectrum.

in sixties we also had 'a pretty complete spectrum' but R. Wilson and A. Penzias discovered Cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964 - so there can be many such undiscovered frequencies

I would like to mention Michael Foucault at this point. He warned against the medicalisation of human mental phenomena

and the author of article is warning against such philosophers like Foucault, because they are making sick 'human mental phenomena' (you can read it in the rest of article)

the mores would be the atheistic view of religion

atheism isn't mores, it is universal point of view on religon, science isn't mores but an universal empirical researches basing on facts, valid in every tradition

there is no equality of mores, there are only superstitions and Science
(and ordinary rubbishes, that is to say this what wrote out for example Foucault)

'let us not deny an illness where some exists'

religion and experiencing of the divine is an established fact. That is, people really do experience it, because our brain has the capacity for feeling that

a tuberculosis is also an established fact, and mentioned tendency, if really exists, could arose as sickness effect

[voodoo scientist]

The brain defines our reality. You may not like the implications of that, but feelings of religious experience are no less real than experiences of anger.  It doesn't mean they are strategically sound, but they are based on stimuli from the real, outside world.

If you're searching for objective truth with your set of subjective sensory organs, you're not going to make a lot of progress anyway.

[PAL/SECAM]

feelings of religious experience are no less real than experiences of anger... they are based on stimuli from the real, outside world.

yes, and feelings of experience of existing forest gnomes are too no less real than experience of anger ... and they too are based on stimuli from the real, outside world (because all fictions are based on stimuli from the real world, if I for example feel that herd of Anubises exists then it must real exist because it is based on stimuli from the real, outside world)

[SWM]

is the 'inside world' real or not real?

[voodoo scientist]

yes, and feelings of experience of existing forest gnomes are too no less real than experience of anger ... and they too are based on stimuli from the real, outside world (because all fictions are based on stimuli from the real world, if I for example feel that herd of Anubises exists then it must real exist because it is based on stimuli from the real, outside world)

Feelings of the existence of forest gnomes are real feelings. Acting on those feelings without substantiation would lead to unpredictable results, but that's entirely different from the existence of the feeling itself, and it is not inherently negative - just unpredictable.