The Answer.

[Grapefruit]

I have a method for gaining freedom from suffering that I would like to share with you.

It all revolves around this core concept.

There is no you.

Sounds wacko? Yep. But it's not. It's the true nature of the human mind unfettered by the ego. Freedom is about being able to stand back and take the ego less seriously. The human mind can do this. It just has to realize that the mind is not an "I". It is not a "you", a seperate entity.

Thoughts are always floating through the mind and the ego is one of these thoughts. Some of the thoughts are real some are not, the ego is one of these thoughts. It is a fictional story that gets woven on the blank canvas of the mind throughout it's life.

What is actually happening is the mind is part of a universal pattern. Chaos theory if you like. The only reason that this "I" has imprinted itself on the mind as a real and seperate phenomena is that humans use it to survive. The mind calls itself "I" for communication. That communication is for survival.

The human mind is no more special than any other phenomenom in the universe. It is just another thing. Just because it is aware doesn't mean it is any more special than any other thing. It's just a part of the pattern, of nature, the universe.

This isn't an inch spiritual. The reason I call it the "truth" is not because I am sure that is an objective fact. It is because I think it is the true nature of subjective experience. Which is what psychology is all about.

Realizing this is the key to freedom. It is the key to more confidence. Less worrys. After all why worry if it's not you having all these thoughts it's just another thing in the universe, all the thoughts are a part of everything, just one natural expression of nature. Nothing need feel so personal or wounding any more. This is awakening cracked. Keep looking at this and you will be liberated in no time.

What I mean by liberation, is that after a while of hitting this thought as hard as you possibly can. You suddenly realize that it is completely self evident. You want to kick yourself for not seeing it before. It's a huge rush being free from all the lies you tell yourself and worry about all day. Deeper freedom comes later but this is the key to unlocking the box.

This is not the end of the personality construct. It is just detaching from it. It is no longer perceived as "you". Nothing about the mind is perceived as "you". There is just everything. Which is a big relief. The emotional well being really starts to kick in later but if you can crack this core concept you are set.

So I'd like to recommend that you hit this idea as hard as possible.

If you have any questions or feedback shoot away. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[voodoo scientist]

Freedom is a meaningless plus-word. I could in principle argue for my freedom to kill people indiscriminately, though it'd obviously be a difficult argument under modern moral constraints. The implied understanding of terms like ego and chaos theory could use some elaboration or better wording, and you really shouldn't title things "The Answer" or use terms like "universal pattern" without very clear definitions, unless you want to come off very mystical and voodoo-like.

Besides that, I agree with the fundamental tenet that there is no I, there is only Me. Very interesting post, by the way, I'd be keen to hear if you have any more thoughts on this.

[Grapefruit]

Maybe freedom is a meaningless plus word. So let's ignore that for now. Lets ditch the chaos theory and patterns aswell.

Instead let me focus on clarifying my point. You're right, there are too many plus words in there. It's this kind of thing that is the reason I didn't get this for so long. I read all the books and what they do is embellish the truth. When what really needs to happen is it needs to be stripped down to it's core. The reason I got this is that I met a man who was absoloutely brutal in his delivery of the truth. I whined and I whined untill I caved and started actually giving serious consideration to this idea. Plumbing the depths if you like, looking into the core of the mind. Just kept asking - "is this really true?" "is there some merit to this idea?".

The core of this is the gateway. Keep focus, no you no you no you. Back to the gateway. It's so hard to get the ego to lay down it's sheilds. After all it has quite literally founded it's entire life on the assumption that it is you. It'll throw up all sorts of crazy tricks to throw you off. Watch it. Take this idea seriously. Is there a you? Keep asking. Be relentless. I hate to ask you to trust something from the mouth of a stranger but please; this should be given serious pause for thought.

You see while I say I like to distance myself from the mystics. There is something to what they say about finding the truth. Their idea is that all humans have the truth within them. To find it they must simple question the core of the mind with honesty and integrity. Ask it what is true. Is there a you?

As I said there are a lot of problems with this. Some get caught in logical loopholes and forget to really ask the mind. The logic is only good in so far as it takes you part way. Another problem people have is they look for the delusion of self with the delusion of self and fail to realize that "you" IS the delusion. There is no them.

You just can't describe this shit. It's the same as how people can't reply when they are asked what somebody looks like. You need to go look for yourself, language does this a huge injustice.

So there are all sorts of potholes here. Just keep focus on the gateway. Keeping hitting the delusion. Even if you agree with the central tenent you probably need to look. When you get this everything takes on a "presence". That's the best way I can describe it. Also because you have taken the CORE delusion away all the other delusions that cause anxiety and depression slowly start to drop away.

[pixx]

Interesting post but does not seem new to me. This is exactly like surrendering to god without religious paint - not even spiritually, simply metaphysically or logically. It relies on belief, thus becomes unprovable and indisputable. i'm getting philosophical and this is about psychology, thus, I am glad if your approach makes you more free.

my2c

[Grapefruit]

Exactly. This doesn't have the paint. The ego throws up all sorts of tricks not to realize it. So you need to be tough with it. That's why there needs to be focus on the core. There is no proof "I" exists yet everyone believes it. "I"'m not even typing this. Typing is just happening. It is just an extension of the pattern.

One of the problems with seeing this is people try to see this with the lie. You IS the lie. So you cannot see this. It can be seen but not by you.

[pixx]

I will trow in one of my personal quotes: Metaphysical delusions, even applicable to a mass scale, personally do not give me confort.

or maybe a question: isn't that yet another trick of I? Negate I into outer space and accept universe to play on a more basic level of I?

[Grapefruit]

You are an academic philosopher I see.

IMO there is a difference between objective philosophy which most people practice and real philosophy. Real philosophy is subjective. It's about delving into the mind and looking at what is really there. What is the core nature of subjective experience. Does the brain really feel there is an "I" in any other terms than as a way of referring to seperate phenomena or is it lying to itself?

I have no wish to get into an objective debate about this. I'd love to see someone prove that there is an "I" objectively though because I never have. This is not about disproving or proving the idea. It's about actually asking the core of the mind.

Looking at everything objectively is a bad approach to psychotherapy IMO. This method of psychotherapy is all about looking directly at the way the mind percieves things. There is no other way to really find out than to dig deep. You can get a lot of very beneficial answers like this. Again, personal opinion but It's much better than just following an NLP style approach to trust your instincts. Psychotherapy was around way before clinical psychology.

[voodoo scientist]

The I does exist in the very broadest sense, because human beings perceive it and allow it to inform a great deal of our behavior. This is almost as important to acknowledge as that the I doesn't exist in the sense it is presented to us by the I itself, which I believe is the point you're trying to make. It is impossible to propagate this in an agentic sense. You can't just go out and ask people to ask themselves if they really exist, because as narrated by the I, the I not only exists but is almost invariably the most important part of the organism (this is probably what you mean when you use the Freudian notion of the ego throwing up defenses).

Try to extract some of those terms you're using from the soup they're flopping around in and really inspect them. For instance, the ego was fundamentally developed around a Cartesian idea of the self and is probably not a good word to use because it implies the existence of a 'true' self. You could modify your definition of ego to fit the bill, but then your ability to propagate your idea to others falls to nearly nothing because of conflicting term definitions. You need to develop a positive alternative to the self.

Until you are ready to get into an objective debate about this, which will take a lot of effort and thinking, you won't get far and will likely grow frustrated eventually. Only on solid ground in the objective can one ever hope to make sense of the subjective. In this case, biology is that objective ground: without understanding the body, the nerve system and its connections and communications, you can't possibly hope to show that the way our internal narrator presents the world is an illusion, less still can you hope to show how it does it.

[Grapefruit]

The "I" doesn't exist in any way. Look at this shit hard. It's just a way for a human being to refer to itself for survival. This doesn't mean that "I" actually exists; that the human is what you are. It's literally living a lie to think so. You IS a delusion people have. This is a fact. Actual reality. There is a seperation between the body and the world but there is no you. It's not even you typing. It's just another thing. This thing might have free will but there is no "you" to have it.

There is a brain and it is conscious of itself. It's just not you in the way that most brains think of it. I can't describe the difference between the two ways of conceiving of "you". You just have to look for youself. There is nothing there. "I" actually refers to nothing. It's just a body referring to itself. It has no real world value other than for the purpose of consciousness functioning in reality. Most people attribute it as an real thing that goes beyond human perceptions.

There is no you to see this. It can be seen. Just not by you. Don't agree or disagree. Actually look at reality. There is no you there.

You need to see, that's it. Seeing doesn't need a you and once a thing is seen it can't be unseen. So look. Drop the you.

No see-er only seeing.
No type-er only typing.
Do you follow?
You are not the one typing. There is just a body typing.
Look.

[Mahiqun]

I have a method for gaining freedom from suffering that I would like to share with you.

It all revolves around this core concept.

There is no you.

Can I ask you what are you suffering from?

I was a bit into Buddhism long time ago (and what you say sounds exactly like this), but always preferred taoism- I don't agree the life is suffering. Sure, there is some suffering at times, but it does not dominate my life, I'm doing plenty of interesting things and have fun. And there definitely is something what we can call ourselves- name, appearance, consciousness and feelings. The lack of feeling of self is very rare but very serious psychiatric disorder- dissociative identity disorder and sometimes very severe schizophrenia or result of drug abuse. If you like theoretizing about destroying the sense of self I strongly recommend Luke Rhinehart's "The Dice Man"- funny and interesting fiction about the man who was totally bored of his life and decided suddenly he'll let the dice to decide what he's going to do.

[voodoo scientist]

The "I" doesn't exist in any way. Look at this shit hard. It's just a way for a human being to refer to itself for survival. This doesn't mean that "I" actually exists; that the human is what you are. It's literally living a lie to think so. You IS a delusion people have. This is a fact. Actual reality. There is a seperation between the body and the world but there is no you. It's not even you typing. It's just another thing. This thing might have free will but there is no "you" to have it.

There is a brain and it is conscious of itself. It's just not you in the way that most brains think of it. I can't describe the difference between the two ways of conceiving of "you". You just have to look for youself. There is nothing there. "I" actually refers to nothing. It's just a body referring to itself. It has no real world value other than for the purpose of consciousness functioning in reality. Most people attribute it as an real thing that goes beyond human perceptions.

There is no you to see this. It can be seen. Just not by you. Don't agree or disagree. Actually look at reality. There is no you there.

You need to see, that's it. Seeing doesn't need a you and once a thing is seen it can't be unseen. So look. Drop the you.

No see-er only seeing.
No type-er only typing.
Do you follow?
You are not the one typing. There is just a body typing.
Look.

Well, this is obviously a new and exciting idea to you, but you should work on defining it a little more for yourself. The self definitely isn't what it appears to be, but to claim it outright doesn't exist is just failing to understand just how complex the relationship between the underlying mechanisms of what we know as the self and how those mechanisms present themselves in our consciousness is. The self exists as surely as learning does.