The Apex of Conditioning ?

[sakoz]

Besides classical and operant conditioning, there's a third version that only applies to humans,(language/thought users). That is:- "believing some images are real".
 Once we  are conditioned to believe some images are real; then any of myrid images can be believed real.
Classical and operant conditioning both require pratice/repetition.  Sincerely believing is - 'first time every time'.
Think of tasting lemon juice and we swallow.(based on past experience). The first time you experience placebo effect , you don't practice before hand; you believe and involuntary reacts.
Our involuntary is "hard-wired" to react to perceptions; no conditioning required to do that. By "providing" believed-thought-images, we utilize what's already present at birth.

I wonder when someone here will experience a insight like Elisa Dolittle when she recognized she had been talking prose long before she knew the word.
Someone might realize they have been believing some images are real ever since they learned to talk/think.

[sakoz]

Did you "get it"?  Can you simultaneously be asleep and awake?  I've been writing about "believing some thought-images are real"; enough already, you think? What's the 'big deal'?
But did you get the part that "at the moment of believing a image is real"- you don't recognize doing it? If you did, it would be like waking up and no longer doing it.
Recognizing 'believing a image is real' "breaks the spell" of believing. You can test this yourself, instead of using a thought-image, use a onion and believe it's a apple. If you sincerely believe it's a apple, you can bite, chew and swallow and it will taste like apple and your eyes won't tear. As long as you 'know' it's a onion you cant/won't believe it's a apple. Only by ruse or hypnosis would you sincerely believe the onion is apple. That's the placebo effect. The subject 'believes' the inert pill is medicine. If told it's only a sugar pill, would their involuntary react to the pill? The subject reacts to their belief, even though it's false. Another example; " I thought the gun was empty." That's like waking up, waking up to the fact that a false thought was believed.
When you don't recognize believing a thought is true, real; your not in charge of your involuntary reactions (emotions), our involuntary is 'hard-wired' to react to perceptions of/from environment. Belief-perceptions are just as automatically reacted to; our involuntary does not,-cannot distinguish the difference.
As a child, were you ever afraid of the "boogyman"? You've been doing this for a long time, only the images been changing.(you stopped believing boogyman, how about other images?)

[sakoz]

I use the phrase 'placebo effect' in a more specific way then is commonly used, which focus on the inert pill rather than on the unrecognized belief that a thought-image is real and reacted to as if it were a perception from/of the environment.
No matter how high your IQ or how smart you think you are, you are not immune from 'placebo effect' (as I use the phrase). I base that on the fact that psychiatrists "fell for the ruse". After it was published, other psychiatrists said they would not 'fall for it'. Guess what? Those that said they would not be fooled , also were, even though they knew it was coming.

[voodoo scientist]

Stop using your magic made-up language if you want to talk. Nobody gets it. Nobody will. Time to buckle down and do the hard work.

Here's a concrete challenge: Explain your ideas without putting anything in quotations.

[sakoz]

I see a difference between quotations and quotation marks. Quotation marks alerts you to the possibily that there maybe more connotations then are in your repertoire. Even the dictionary refers to other words.
Questions direct you to look at what 'you' know; there might be more.
Voodoo; Nobody gets it? Nobody will? Your right, as long as you stay in your first order frame of reference. 'Shifting' to a higher order frame of reference is required. Unfortunately, such 'shifts' are not volitional, but rather by epiphany/insight. (Paradigm Shift).
First order frame of reference is very analogous to a hampster wheel you can't get off, or in case of frame of reference, you can't get 'out' of.
voodoo; as long as no-one says they 'get it'; then you are the spokesperson  for all the readers.
(Would it be out of place to mention the 'shift' from believing the earth was flat to believing the earth is round?)

Thank you both.

[Enigma]

I'm going to add to Voodoo and SWM's points and say form a paragraph of well thought out ideas instead of a disjointed stream-of-consciousness.  You are not some misunderstood genius; we won't miraculously understand you one day through some divine revelation.  Our paradigms are perfectly fine; it is you who needs a paradigm shift.

[slinkysally]

Classical and operant conditioning both require pratice/repetition.  Sincerely believing is - 'first time every time'.
Think of tasting lemon juice and we swallow.(based on past experience). The first time you experience placebo effect , you don't practice before hand; you believe and involuntary reacts.
Our involuntary is "hard-wired" to react to perceptions; no conditioning required to do that. By "providing" believed-thought-images, we utilize what's already present at birth.

I really liked this part, especially concerning how there is no practice in experiencing a placebo effect. I'd like to draw a parallel with something else that comes to mind, and that'd be the types of suggestions that Erickson would give under hypnosis. You reminded me of a story I just reread, regarding his work with clients exhibiting claustrophobia. He'd work with their imagination, redefining the windows and doors being open (necessary for the person to not feel claustrophobic) as not being windows, but rather slits in a compact wall. Creating a new way of viewing it, he circumvented the associations that previous view had with their emotions, habits, etc.. He then would have them imagine one of them actually being shut... and would progressively have this happen, while at the same time, actually shutting them. In the end, they would no longer have claustrophobia.

So, you can see why I dug your post, as it follows the same line of thought. All that conditioning was very limiting, and he simply gave them the chance to perceive things differently than they otherwise would have continued to do.... and then the desired change followed immediately.
 

[sakoz]

voodoo scientist, SWM, Enigma, Gentlemen; If you don't understand what I write then you can't help proliferate the understanding that alleviates needless emotional suffering caused by believing false thoughts and misperceptions. Do you understand the role of believing thought?
How about each of you answering the question; "What happens or what is the consequences when you or anyone do not recognize believing a false thought?"

Can you look without thinking? Just looking, automatically brings a image to mind. If the 'wrong' image comes (rope/snake; noise/burglar;  9 dots/square; the images of snake, burglar, square do not fit the facts, yet are reacted to instead of to the facts.) the reactions often  cause needless emotional suffering and/or mistakes.

Once you guys access/realize the level of understanding available to you; I count on you to improve the delivery of understanding for the other readers.

 slinkysally, Thank you for your feed-back. "to perceive things differently". Yes, using different thoughts, etc.  (thoughts are artifacts; right?)

[sakoz]

slinkysally; "All that conditioning was very limiting,..." also," he circumvented the associations that....." and ,"... the desired changes followed immediately."
That summarizes what I been writing about. Why does 'the change follow immediately'? Because our involuntary reacts to perceptions immediately.
Unlike Pavlovs dogs, we 'can' learn to circumvent our conditioning and use them by choice rather than by compulsion as heretofore.

Your reply validates that we are born 'hard wired' to react to perceptions from/of the environment. That same 'circuitry' can be and is utilized/spliced into by two other sources.
Conditioned belief images and new thought images. All three sources are synonymous to our unconscious on arrival. (It's job is to react, not to sort/evaluate input.)

[Enigma]

How about each of you answering the question; "What happens or what is the consequences when you or anyone do not recognize believing a false thought?"

religion

[sakoz]

SWM; I missed your input/interaction. I think I understand you ;your reply. Your right, I do repeat. An analogy; when some people go abroad, and the natives don't understand english, they have a tendency to speak louder, even shout, as if that will help them understand. I'm making similar error, as if repetition helps to 'get it' viscerally.
You write you agree with the concept (see? conceptually) that's not enough.  Let me give you an example of application by me. Just this morning I was thinking about my head phones that stopped working after only two years of use. I was thinking about what I will write in a e-mail to sony. As I was thinking, I detected/noticed a 'hint' of irritation. I immediately "nipped it in the bud", before it escalated into frustration then anger, etc. Simply by recognizing I was "playing" with images in my head; I was taking my thoughts seriously
Now that's,what I mean by "getting it"; actual application. No one has shared a similar experience of direct application, so I can tell,"Yes, they got it".

SWM; Do you 'really' believe the ABC of emotions? What I post is A;, B and C are yours; not sometimes but every time.

[voodoo scientist]

It's hilarious how he tries to justify his abuse of analogies first by direct analogy, then complaining that other people aren't using enough analogies.

[sakoz]

voodoo scientist;  Please continue to not believing anything I post so that you can continue to maintain your status quo.

[voodoo scientist]

I think that's the most concrete statement you've managed to produce in your entire time on these forums.

[sakoz]

SWM; you wrote; "...you are not adding anything new to this concept except more metaphors and analogies relating to the same concept-...."  You want more concepts?
But I just point and point and point; and you don't look to where I point. I point to inside of you. Don't you count on clients having insights of their own? You only point them in that direction; you set the atmosphere so they can and hopefully will experience their own insights. I don't have what you want- you do. ( I trust you have-; don't you?)

[sakoz]

SWM; I point to things you have known before you knew me; you say? That's not what I'm pointing to. It's what you don't know, neither do I; the insights YET to come.
You have the potential, we all do, look to that innate ability. Don't be Rip Van Winkle.
We all are capable of experiencing insight/aha at any moment; even if they only occur  serendipitously. That's what I count on for you and all of us. Don't you also?

[slinkysally]

Who is SWM? I think there's someone else participating in this thread, someone whose posts I cannot see. *confused

[sakoz]

slinkysally: SWM deleted one or more of his replies here, but my replies are still intact.