where and what is your mind?

[SWM]

i was thinking about why the mind is important in mental illness.

i wondered what people think about the mind.

what do you include in a definition of the mind. is it just thoughts, thoughts and feelings, some other things too?

do you consider your mind to be inside your brain. do you consider your mind to exist as an "thing" or do you consider your mind to be an illusion created by the brain firing chemicals about inside your head?

what do you think about your mind?

[Schizo]

I would assume the "mind" is an intricate system of neurons and such, but WHAT A SYSTEM! = )

Interestingly I should note that neural programs or A.I. will never be complete until we know how to simulate emotion and feeling.

What is emotion???  Does it lay within the understanding of cognition???  It is truly a mystery...  one worth solving though, because in its end I feel we will better our society.  Not only in the insight's ability to create intelligence in non-organic systems but most likely it will catalyze or own societies to a point where we operate more efficiently.  Think about it... if 98% or so of our social systems are influenced by religion, that is consuming a portion of our total ability to process.  We are operating at a poor efficiency. 

 
But one may ask, operating for what... Ahhh! Now there is the question...  what are intelligent systems (humans and their societies) achieving.  It may lie within the structure of existence or something else, but what I can assure myself and others of, is that it is not appealing some God/Gods less that presence be a governing intelligent system other than our own...  ALIENS... = )

   

[ErikAndersen]

i was thinking about why the mind is important in mental illness.

i wondered what people think about the mind.

what do you include in a definition of the mind. is it just thoughts, thoughts and feelings, some other things too?

do you consider your mind to be inside your brain. do you consider your mind to exist as an "thing" or do you consider your mind to be an illusion created by the brain firing chemicals about inside your head?

what do you think about your mind?

Oh! The great "Minds and Brains" conundrum! I love thinking about this, as it melds my profession with one of my passions: Philosophy.

The problem OP is hinting at might be summed up as follows: "if our minds are nothing but neurons firing chemical messages to each other, how could there possibly be free-will and consciousness?" [Would you agree, SWM?]

This is THE hot topic in many psychology and neuroscience circles. My personal opinion is that we can't yet come to an answer given our lack of knowledge in Physics, but an answer should arise within our lifetimes. In the meanwhile, I would define a "mind" as a localized entity capable of processing information. Under my definition, a computer would qualify as a "mind", as would a living cell. This might be unsatisfactory for now as far as being a suitable answer for your question, but if you think about what we as a scientific community don't know, then hopefully you'll forgive my poor answer.

I'd be VERY interested in hearing what other professional psych-docs, therapists, scientists and Philosophers have to say!

[sakoz]

SWM;   WOW, excellent topic.   Opinions, assumptions abound; like the one I just made about the topic. We are all 'good' at not recognizing when we depart from 'reality' and go into thought/fantacy, etc.
So lets start as close to 'facts' as we can; and later refer our opinions/assumptions back to facts for validation.
E=mc2.  There's more E, 'space/energy' than there is m, matter. Likewise, there's more unknown than known.
The 'Big Bang' was unobserved, (by humans, but we can posit consciousness as 'permeating' space/energy or even being identical, some 'call' God.)
It appears we can only start with some basic assumptions, which are usually tacit premises. Those that share and believe the same ones, tend to agree; those that don't, tend to disagree.
I look forward to what will be posted here, and watch and participate in the 'interchange', etc.

[sakoz]

It would be remiss not to mention the following when considering mental illness and/or mental health.
Rorschach Ink Blot Test demonstrates "projection". ( of images ).
Do you believe we project images without using Rorschach cards; in other contexts; WITHOUT RECOGNIZING DOING SO?
When we 'unwittingly' believe some of our images are real, we "seemingly supplement" our environment with ILLUSORY ENTITIES, and react to them as well as we do to facts.
Example; You can LOOK at a coiled rope in dim light and SEE a snake (projected image) and involuntarily react; not recognizing the image of snake as illusion. A form of 'amnesia', that 'amnesia' can even extend to your not believing that you do in fact often believe some of 'your' images are real.  This phenomenon is more chronic than recognized or admitted. Even professional mental health practioners do it. See the article titled; "On Being Sane In Insane Places". ( I wrote the gist of the article in another thread).

[SWM]

my Op was really to start a discussion about how people think about and understand their own mind.

I wanted to gain some perspectives of what does mind mean to others. how do you observe mind. how much power does your mind have over the physical body (/reality even).

some people might consider their mind to be consciousness (i think ErikE implied this position in his first reply to this thread)

others might consider mind as the self talking cognitive faculty in the brain.

I dont know what else??? thats why the thread.

[sakoz]

Is my post about projection inappropriate here? Projection is mind in action;(is mind IN brain?)
"....how people think about and understand their own mind.....".  We can think about thinking; your asking to think about the brain/mind doing the thinking? The thinking faculty does NOT recognize when it produces a false thought, so who's job is it to evaluate if a thought is worth believing?
".....how do you observe your mind...". Using the mind to observe itself? Archimedes said; "Give me a place to stand and I will move the earth." (lever&fulcrum).
We too need a 'perspective' from which to observe our mind; there is that perspective very much taken for granted, goes unrecognized. When you 'see' a image in your minds eye, how is it being observed?
Also during dreams, how/who observes the dream images if "your' asleep? That 'witness' is present when 'your' awake; obviously "it"(misnomer) does not sleep, that's why dreams are observed, etc.

[Enigma]

The word mind is typically used to refer to mental states and processes: emotions, cognition, consciousness, feelings, etc.  Assuming the mind is some distinct entity from the brain is like assuming the fragility of glass is some separate and distinct property of glass, rather then being a result of the constitution of the internal structure.  Or to use another example, it's like being taken on a tour of the university; visiting the buildings and athletic fields, talking with faculty and staff, then after taking the tour, asking, "but where is the university, as if the university was some separate physical entity.  In philosophy of the mind, identity theory posits that mental states are identical to brain states.  For example, pain is nothing more than C-fiber stimulation in the nervous system.  However, one argument against identity theory is multiple realization: mental processes can be realized by multiple physical states.   To use the pain example, can androids be programmed to feel pain or could silicon-based aliens feel pain?  This lead to the theory of functionalism: mental states are not defined by physical properties but are defined by the role they play in a system.  Internal constitution does not matter, function is key.  A car alarm is a car alarm whether it is the sound that emits from the car when you hit the panic button or just some dude you paid to stand next to your car and scream at people when they try and break in.  Pain is pain as long as it fulfills its function of avoiding noxious stimuli.

[sakoz]

Enigma; You seem very knowledgeable. ( I'm glad I used "mind/brain; not separated).
Would you address; "The thinking faculty does not recognize when it produces a false thought." It produces all thoughts equal; it's the usage that determines if the thought is worth believing and acting out.
Just as all emotions are appropriate/legitimate in response to the 'perceptions' that evoke them. If we substitute false,believed images, don't fault the emotional reaction, or the involuntary that reacts to beliefs.

[daredevil95]

i was thinking about why the mind is important in mental illness.

i wondered what people think about the mind.

what do you include in a definition of the mind. is it just thoughts, thoughts and feelings, some other things too?

do you consider your mind to be inside your brain. do you consider your mind to exist as an "thing" or do you consider your mind to be an illusion created by the brain firing chemicals about inside your head?

what do you think about your mind?

Oh! The great "Minds and Brains" conundrum! I love thinking about this, as it melds my profession with one of my passions: Philosophy.

The problem OP is hinting at might be summed up as follows: "if our minds are nothing but neurons firing chemical messages to each other, how could there possibly be free-will and consciousness?" [Would you agree, SWM?]

This is THE hot topic in many psychology and neuroscience circles. My personal opinion is that we can't yet come to an answer given our lack of knowledge in Physics, but an answer should arise within our lifetimes. In the meanwhile, I would define a "mind" as a localized entity capable of processing information. Under my definition, a computer would qualify as a "mind", as would a living cell. This might be unsatisfactory for now as far as being a suitable answer for your question, but if you think about what we as a scientific community don't know, then hopefully you'll forgive my poor answer.

I'd be VERY interested in hearing what other professional psych-docs, therapists, scientists and Philosophers have to say!

Ahh....interesting? My opinion......so think of the mind if you will as the bridge that brings our universal essence/being into reality/tangible world as we know it.

We would have to agree that our individual essence/being is part of the unknown/unseen universe. Our essence is either physics we don't know yet or "created by god" or combination of both....we don't know, yet our essence exist. Our essence uses the brain as a bridge from the universe and projects our being into our known physical world. Our essence uses our brain/mind to interact in this world and our being is created. Not all brains are equal and as with anything none are perfect and hence, an individual being is created.

It's highly unlikely that we could build a computer comparable to the mind....essence/being guides the mind as far as rational decision making. There is no known physics that can synthesis essence. IMHO

IMHO in a nut shell....this is life as we know it (arguably).

[SWM]

@daredevil would this be an accurate reflection of your psostion -

what the voice is to our thoughts the mind is to our being/essence

[daredevil95]

@daredevil would this be an accurate reflection of your psostion -

what the voice is to our thoughts the mind is to our being/essence

No, I would disagree with that statement. Our mind is a bridge from our essence to our being. Our being is a combination of essence and environment formed by the bridge of our mind.  Environment would be your next question; our being is based on our essence which is influenced/formed by our individual environments. Voice and thoughts are part of being while at the same time bridging through the mind with essence.

So, "what the voice is to our thoughts the mind is to our being/essence" at this point from my perception of this statement I would disagree with this statement.....I would rephrase: our voice to our thoughts as to being is our essence....? I'm not sure if that would be my final statement....something for me to ponder? What do you think? Or....are you on a completely different path as as essence/being in relation to the mind? Love to hear various opinions!!!!!

[gone]

drugs can alter the 'mind' which I think interesting.

[daredevil95]

drugs can alter the 'mind' which I think interesting.

What part of altering is interesting....

[pert -5]

drugs can alter the 'mind' which I think interesting.

What part of altering is interesting....

Showing new perspectives to the thought which we feel enriches our lives, that can be interesting.  Looking at the same old humdrum from a different point of view, that can be interesting.  Gaining a greater insight into your subconscious thought processes and its minutiae, that can be interesting.

Let's reverse it.  What, by altering one's mind, is uninteresting?

[gone]

meaning that the mind can be altered with chemicals, make what you will of it.
medication for example, which proves the mind is susceptible & can be altered very simply with external stimulants. we consider the mind to be our identity, yet this fragile 'thing' can be changed simply by introducing something, the mind is vulnerable, fluid and not a solid or fixed state but can be altered very easily, and by others (which is worrying) that's what's interesting.
That and what pert said above.

[daredevil95]

drugs can alter the 'mind' which I think interesting.

What part of altering is interesting....

Showing new perspectives to the thought which we feel enriches our lives, that can be interesting.  Looking at the same old humdrum from a different point of view, that can be interesting.  Gaining a greater insight into your subconscious thought processes and its minutiae, that can be interesting.

Let's reverse it.  What, by altering one's mind, is uninteresting?

Addiction would be my concern and good health reasons....?

[SWM]

the mind can also be altered by the mind, behaviour and will (intention)

when altering the mind through drugs we can cause problems due to substances only working on specific chemicals in the body. this cause imbalances. if we alter the mind through thought and action such as in meditation these imbalances do not occur.

[gone]

the point I was making is the mind may seem invisible, but if it can be altered by chemicals it must be psysical.

I wrote this because a 10 year old boy who'd been prescribed anti-depressants and ritalin for ADHD hung himself. The corroner said the effects of such mind altering drugs on children should be cause for concern.

Yes the mind can also alter the mind. Is something invisible, or psysical happening to bring about these changes?

[pert -5]

Addiction would be my concern and good health reasons....?

When it comes to some drugs I would 100% wholeheartedly agree with this.  But with an entheogen such as LSD, it is not the drug, but the user's lack of understanding and preparedness which can make it dangerous.  And as for cannabis, there has not been 1, not 1 case of overdose for the duration of recorded history.  Nor does addiction seem to be a problem with either of these, save for those with a natural tendency toward such...

@SWM
I go out of my way to preach Jnana and Raja Yoga over drugs all of the time, and NOW you pipe up!? 

@psycho mom
They affect the brain which is the progenitor of the mind.  Um... ask Enigma.

[daredevil95]

This thread just went down hill...started off interesting!!

[gone]

daredevil - and you have contributed exactly what to the topic?
it went downhill when you suggested the universe could have been created by god !!!! then proceeded to criticised comments you don't understand or don't like. nuff said.

[daredevil95]

the point I was making is the mind may seem invisible, but if it can be altered by chemicals it must be psysical.

I wrote this because a 10 year old boy who'd been prescribed anti-depressants and ritalin for ADHD hung himself. The corroner said the effects of such mind altering drugs on children should be cause for concern.

Yes the mind can also alter the mind. Is something invisible, or psysical happening to bring about these changes?

The mind is physical.....essence is universal....the mind is a bridge from the universe(essence) to the physical world we know of....being.  So of course the mind is physical and your poisoning yourself when using these drugs!! Your tilting and twisting the mind in ways it was not meant to be/do.  Is this extremely subjective.....YES. My experiences dictate my perceptions and I'm willing to share....laugh if you want, doubt if you must....agree if you see but, believe meee.....been there done that....there's nothing there to learn but, heart ache and nonsense!! There's nothing in that domain to help/enhance humanity!!!!

Good day!

PS...the beginning of the thread was much better....steer away from the drugs topic....the proper universe is much better topic.

[pert -5]

the point I was making is the mind may seem invisible, but if it can be altered by chemicals it must be psysical.

I wrote this because a 10 year old boy who'd been prescribed anti-depressants and ritalin for ADHD hung himself. The corroner said the effects of such mind altering drugs on children should be cause for concern.

Yes the mind can also alter the mind. Is something invisible, or psysical happening to bring about these changes?

The mind is physical.....essence is universal....the mind is a bridge from the universe(essence) to the physical world we know of....being.  So of course the mind is physical and your poisoning yourself when using these drugs!! Your tilting and twisting the mind in ways it was not meant to be/do.  Is this extremely subjective.....YES. My experiences dictate my perceptions and I'm willing to share....laugh if you want, doubt if you must....agree if you see but, believe meee.....been there done that....there's nothing there to learn but, heart ache and nonsense!! There's nothing in that domain to help/enhance humanity!!!!

Good day!

PS...the beginning of the thread was much better....steer away from the drugs topic....the proper universe is much better topic.

But the root of the word "universe" is uni, which means one.  If the drugs are not a part of that universe, then that dictates a dichotomy between the twain--and hence: no ONE.  I'm sorry that drugs only led you to "heart ache and nonsense", but that's just your experience.  To denigrate the whole matter due to one specific case is myopic at best.  I agree though, we should steer this topic away from the drug talk to remain more in line with the OP (though the topic of chemical reagents is not so far from the mark as some would believe).

Peace

[SWM]

@SWM
I go out of my way to preach Jnana and Raja Yoga over drugs all of the time, and NOW you pipe up!? 

Ive never noticed you talking about yoga.  

the point I was making is the mind may seem invisible, but if it can be altered by chemicals it must be psysical.

what do you mean by the mind seems invisible?

No, I would disagree with that statement. Our mind is a bridge from our essence to our being. Our being is a combination of essence and environment formed by the bridge of our mind.  Environment would be your next question; our being is based on our essence which is influenced/formed by our individual environments. Voice and thoughts are part of being while at the same time bridging through the mind with essence.

would you say then that being is the expresion of essence and mind is the vehicle through which essence manifests being.

So, "what the voice is to our thoughts the mind is to our being/essence" at this point from my perception of this statement I would disagree with this statement.....I would rephrase: our voice to our thoughts as to being is our essence....? I'm not sure if that would be my final statement....something for me to ponder? What do you think? Or....are you on a completely different path as as essence/being in relation to the mind? Love to hear various opinions!!!!!

i thinkg we are on a similar path perhaps just the language we use to confer is different.  i am the embodiment of consiousness. consciousness expressed through form.

[daredevil95]

the point I was making is the mind may seem invisible, but if it can be altered by chemicals it must be psysical.

I wrote this because a 10 year old boy who'd been prescribed anti-depressants and ritalin for ADHD hung himself. The corroner said the effects of such mind altering drugs on children should be cause for concern.

Yes the mind can also alter the mind. Is something invisible, or psysical happening to bring about these changes?

The mind is physical.....essence is universal....the mind is a bridge from the universe(essence) to the physical world we know of....being.  So of course the mind is physical and your poisoning yourself when using these drugs!! Your tilting and twisting the mind in ways it was not meant to be/do.  Is this extremely subjective.....YES. My experiences dictate my perceptions and I'm willing to share....laugh if you want, doubt if you must....agree if you see but, believe meee.....been there done that....there's nothing there to learn but, heart ache and nonsense!! There's nothing in that domain to help/enhance humanity!!!!

Good day!

PS...the beginning of the thread was much better....steer away from the drugs topic....the proper universe is much better topic.

But the root of the word "universe" is uni, which means one.  If the drugs are not a part of that universe, then that dictates a dichotomy between the twain--and hence: no ONE.  I'm sorry that drugs only led you to "heart ache and nonsense", but that's just you're experience.  To denigrate the whole matter due to one specific case is myopic at best.  I agree though, we should steer this topic away from the drug talk to remain more in line with the OP (though the topic of chemical reagents is not so far from the mark as some would believe).

Peace

Drugs are part of the universe/being....so is the Sun....the mind burns if it gets to close to both....

Drugs aren't necessary a bad experience....depending....at the end of the road good or bad.....there's nothing there. Keep this in mind when exploring and when deciding how far to go.

[pert -5]

Drugs are part of the universe/being....so is the Sun....the mind burns if it gets to close to both....

Drugs and the Sun burn those who are servants or slaves to drugs and the Sun.  

The universe is non-distinct.  Mind and sun and burn and drugs are but masks of the underlying harmony.

[SWM]

do drugs tell us anything useful about the mind or are they just a means of interfering with the connections between the neurons?

[pert -5]

do drugs tell us anything useful about the mind or are they just a means of messing with the connections between the neurons?

The entheogens can enhance certain aspects of the sensory apparatus and cause them to process input in ways that sober cognizance could not comprehend.  I know that Gnana Yoga can get you "higher" than any drug.

[pljames]

Excellent question. I will go with the mind is thoughts and emotions and sentient. I do not understand any neuro activity in the brain. But it to has a part. The brain is physical and biological where the mind is invisible within the brain. Like hardware and software. That's as close as I can come to that question. As far as mental health playing a part that to is necessary.pljames

i was thinking about why the mind is important in mental illness.

i wondered what people think about the mind.

what do you include in a definition of the mind. is it just thoughts, thoughts and feelings, some other things too?

do you consider your mind to be inside your brain. do you consider your mind to exist as an "thing" or do you consider your mind to be an illusion created by the brain firing chemicals about inside your head?

what do you think about your mind?