Losing your mind - The greatest fear known to mankind.

[ozziemate]

When researching fear and paranoia it becomes obvious that the greatest fear we all struggle with, whether we are living neat organised lives or are on the fringe of society and metaphorical madness is the fear of losing our mind. In a nut shell, it is the fear of going crazy. The fear of chaos, and most importantly the fear of losing control of our own lives especially our own bodies.

It seems that every minute of the day is spent ensuring order in our lives is mainatained. It appears that a great percentage of our energy is devoted to this constant task. For some it is relatively easy being blessed with great circumstances and life style with adequate support and nurturing. For others it can be extremely difficult when living in precarious surrounds, little certainty about what the future holds and self destructive relationships.
The fear of losing your mind is the driving force behind serious states such as Schizophrenia, manic depression and various other significant mind/body issues. IMO

When interviewing an elderly gentleman [68] the other day I asked him what was his greatest fear [regarding aging and body] and his response surprisingly wasn't cancer or heart attack or even dementia it was quite simply the lose of bowel and urinary control in a public place. He would always go into a shopping centre for example terrified that he will "drop his bundle" right in the middle of the mall. So he avoided public places and areas where this could possibly happen. Yet both bowel and baldder are extremely receptive to fear and fear itself can cause a loss of control of both vital aspects of human bodilly function. So I ask is it the fear of losing control that is causing the loss of control?
It is something we have as part of our human desire to build our lives and maintain them, but most of all it is the ability to "see" and comprehend what we have actually acheived and will acheive that is the greatest desire. The loss of self and cognitive powers is something that defeats the very purpose of our existance.

It seems though strangely enough that the loss of control has more to do with the fear than the actual loss of control. In other words it is teh fear of losing it that forces the mind into excessive worry, thus fatigue and then on to actual loss of control not due to anything else other than the fear of losing it.

So I ask the question:

"Is it the irrational fear, the paranoia, the fear driven thinking and imagining that is our greatest concern or is the fear real, founded in reality and actual?"

One thing I have found though out all my research and interviews of chronically ill patients and aquaintenances is the following motto:
"Insanity does not exist as it is only people struggling with what they sense and the deisre to rationalise what they sense that gives the appearance of insanity"

Thus I have yet to meet a single person that I could infer to be "insane" as I believe that sanity is inevitably an irreducable concept and something we all have as a birth right.

care to discuss?



 

[voodoo scientist]

I agree, to an extent, with your view on sanity. Psychology (especially prior to cognitive psychology) had acquired a nasty habit of trying to tell people how they should live their lives instead of how they can live their lives. It's an outdated term though, since noone is actually diagnosed with "insanity" anymore, so in a medical context the point is largely moot - but I do agree in a "popular usage" context.

However, I'm not sure on what basis you're connecting "the fear of losing your mind" with schizophrenia, manic depression and unnamed others, so it's difficult to discuss this point. There doesn't appear to be any real connection, at least not that I can see.

Regarding your central question, "Is it the irrational fear, the paranoia, the fear driven thinking and imagining that is our greatest concern or is the fear real, founded in reality and actual?", I have no idea, because I don't understand what you're asking.

[ozziemate]

Basically I am asking the question and suggesting an answer to it:
"Is it the fear of loosing control of our minds  and body that creates the loss of control of our mind and body?"
"Is the paranoia of losing control, going crazy the basic causation for the loss if control?"

[Karaten]

Please define insanity better.

If you mean a loss of hold on reality, I don't believe the fear itself can cause that. Rather, the fear would be an emulation of the unknown. I suppose you could just plainly have a fear of losing your mind, causing trauma, but even then, to have that irrational fear would be a sign of another problem all together. No healthy person would have a fear from nothing that causes them so much distress they lose their "sanity".

I suppose you could say that the fear can certainly make the situation worse, but it's not a cause within itself.

[ozziemate]

Please define insanity better.

If you mean a loss of hold on reality, I don't believe the fear itself can cause that. Rather, the fear would be an emulation of the unknown. I suppose you could just plainly have a fear of losing your mind, causing trauma, but even then, to have that irrational fear would be a sign of another problem all together. No healthy person would have a fear from nothing that causes them so much distress they lose their "sanity".

I suppose you could say that the fear can certainly make the situation worse, but it's not a cause within itself.

fair comment....

Firstly the word Insanity is only used to indicate Chaos or irrationality leading to chaos in a persons life.
Secondly it is proposed that the chaos is actually more to do with paranoia than actuality.
Thridly, it is proposed that the fear of chaos of mind and body that drives the worry that drives the intense fatigue that leads to further irrationality and severe conditioning that leads on to a state of chronic disability.

The test notion I am proposing is that the Fear of losing control governs about all our behaviour and our relationships and if that fear of loosing control is intense then dysfunction can be the only result.

So in essence paranoia is our greatest issue when it comes to mental health. As it is the paranoia that drives the decline  of our mental health due to the damage the irrationality it generates causes to our lives.

[SWM]

so would this only be relevant to disorders that involve paranoia, ie schizophrenia, paranoid psychosis.

my experience does not bare testimony to that hypothesis. i was diagnosed with paranoid psychosis which later devloped into schizophrenia. my fears where never related to losing my mind or chaos because ( and this is true for many psychotic patients) i believed i was completely sane. one of the defining features of psychosis is the concept of insight, the psychotic individual does not have insight into his problem. the fear that was driving my paranoia was the fear of being killed and the fear of my symptoms. not knowing what was happening to me was confusing and frightening, not having a reasonable explanation of my experiences that gave my experiences a context was frightening. but i was not afraid of going insane because i believed i was sane. it was my reality that did not make sense.

[Karaten]

so would this only be relevant to disorders that involve paranoia, ie schizophrenia, paranoid psychosis.

my experience does not bare testimony to that hypothesis. i was diagnosed with paranoid psychosis which later devloped into schizophrenia. my fears where never related to losing my mind or chaos because ( and this is true for many psychotic patients) i believed i was completely sane. one of the defining features of psychosis is the concept of insight, the psychotic individual does not have insight into his problem. the fear that was driving my paranoia was the fear of being killed and the fear of my symptoms. not knowing what was happening to me was confusing and frightening, not having a reasonable explanation of my experiences that gave my experiences a context was frightening. but i was not afraid of going insane because i believed i was sane. it was my reality that did not make sense.

I believe "greatest fears" are too subjective realistically to define in a objective sense, considering the different mind sets people have. In a evolutionary sense, the greatest fear would most likely be death or inability to preserve one's genes, in a behavioral sense, it would most likely be pain, or a negative response.

On the other side, we have suicidal people, and masochists, who add a whole other aspect, defying the ability to define the above in objective terms.

The notion of insanity being a greatest fear seems strange to me, as sanity is usually something we feel we have a fair grasp on until it is in danger, which makes it firstly a bit less irrational and secondly most likely not the cause.

Let us not forget cause and correlation relativity, in which fear of insanity is a symptom of potential insanity, rather than the cause.

[ozziemate]

Normally my style of posting is to consider a notion frame it as best I can and then test it in a public forum.
anyways,

The notion that "losing your mind" would be the greatest fear known to mankind is premised on "root" or fundamental philosophies such as Descartes ergo sum  "I Think Therefore I am" and understandings regarding ego and self esteem.
In some ways we feel this fear only in hindsight when we make a sudden realisation that we have made a terrible error of judgement or a shocking mistake and we feel that incredible anxiety well up hoping that we can recover from it and possibly not make that error or mistake again.
It is something we always live with and take for granted as part of our desire to stay rational and orderly in our lives. I would suggest that it is only when evidence presents itself, that we are receptive to, that indicates a slippage of reality that the fear takes on a profound paranoia, based on fearful speculations as to what may happen in the future.
This I would suggest then clouds our ability to perceive and make judgements even more so as we slip into a twilight zone of not knowing and severely doubting our own judgements about ourselves and our surroundings.
The current [and ancient] debate in philosophy about "objectivity not being available due to subjective sensing" also heightens that anxiety as we are toying with the idea that every thing is a creation of our own making any ways.
It is I guess the inherent anxiety of modern life to consider whether we can "get through the day" or "survive until the weekend" or "manage to get through the latest family crisis" etc etc...and if we do all is well and if we don't possibly a trip to see a Doctor is in order. [to placate our fears]
From an evolution perspective I would suggest that at no time has evolution of this universe from day one ever truly been "insane" or irrational. [A nebula of exotic particles is still attempting to find order for example]
True we have seen chaos rising to order and that itself indicates what I mean. However the fear of order becoming Chaos is a different matter and I would suggest that it is the fear of Chaos that maintains that order in a larger and more profound sense.
Therefore I am tempted to conclude that "Sanity" is a immutable and irreducible concept even if on occasions as SWM has mentioned we loose insight into our own situation and reflect it or project it onto our surroundings instead.

For those who fear loosing their minds and are reading this thread consider the fact that it is impossible to do that in total and that recovery is always a possibility as "Order" is always the primary objective of evolution. Thus that fundamental fear/paranoia can be mollified a little even if the journey through the haze of temporal chaos can be so painful.

How often to do you hear the phrases "I must be going crazy!" or "I would be crazy not to " or when someone projects their own version of sanity [ normality] on to some one else using the same words "You must be crazy to think that" or "You would be crazy not to". No doubt you would agree that it is very common indeed as we all self check each others "order" position all the time.

I would contend that paranoia is based primarily on ignorance and that understanding placates and rationalises unfounded fear into something more real and realistic.

On a side note an example I believe that is relevant:

How many times do you think the people of the USA attempt to deal with the paranoid reaction to the crisis in Iraq?
How many times have they considered how much money has been wasted due to the poor decisions of it's leadership?
How do they the American People deal with the anxiety of knowing the mistake their nation is currently embroiled in?
then...
How much effort is going in to avoid repeating the same mistake?
The irony about all this is that if the Iraq issue was primarily about stable oil supplies, then wouldn't the enormous amounts of money invested in the Iraq situation be better spent ridding the USA of oil dependency by coming up with renewable energy alternatives. A few trillion dollars could surely develop alternative renewable energy platforms yes?
If it was about WMD's they found none.

So paranoia has significant implications is all I am suggesting. Whether or not my point about Iraq is founded or not is a matter of debate.

So to protect the "order" of the USA the invasion of Iraq was deemed necessary. However as no WMD were found that decision was basically one premised in paranoia.
So the USA has declined in to a "crazy" situation simply because of paranoia and not actual reality based fear and it has taken the rest of the world with them.

[ozziemate]

so would this only be relevant to disorders that involve paranoia, ie schizophrenia, paranoid psychosis.

No IMO it is relevant to just about all human behaviour and is a sigifcant part of the "Human condition" Dysfunction generated by paranoia such as Schizophrenia which is invariably paranoid based are just extreme examples of the issue.

[ozziemate]

Karaten: snip;
the greatest fear would most likely be death or inability to preserve one's genes, in a behavioral sense, it would most likely be pain, or a negative response.

yet in all cases the fear is premised only on speculation and not fact. [ therefore paranoia in genesis]

The irony is that the fear of death which we all know is inevitable is in itself quite bizare when you think on it. "Why fear something you have absolutely no control over?" is the strange approach I am contemplating.
It is the fear, not so much of death, but of what happens possibly leading to death [ pain ] and what may happen after death. In fact most religions are evolved on a platform of paranoia.
Certainly Christianity is a classic and obvious example of paranoia based religion. And in extreme cases religion leads to severe chaos [ Twin Trade Tower collapse/ destruction due to religious orientated terrorism]
So in essense I could argue that paranoia is indeed the fear of loosing control not only of our minds but what out minds create.

Side note:
Are you familiar with the stage play "The Forbidden Planet"?
I f I recall properly, it is about a evil genius who creates, with his fearful ego things that he can't control. Inevitably those things destroy him, thus demonstrating how it is the fear of losing control of what we create [I think there fore I am  or I create therefore I am] and slipping into chaos due to that fear [that creates the problem]  A state of our fear manifesting itself into our reality.

Let us not forget cause and correlation relativity, in which fear of insanity is a symptom of potential insanity, rather than the cause.

And that is exactly what I am wanting to see discussion on, as i am proposing that it is only paranoia that drives the potential for "insanity" or  "Chaos" as the simple awareness of what would happen if chaos came into our lives drives the fear and when extreme and irrational drives the decline into Chaos.
Thus fear or paranoia is self perpetuating and self justifying hence damn hard to solve.

[SWM]

so would this only be relevant to disorders that involve paranoia, ie schizophrenia, paranoid psychosis.

No IMO it is relevant to just about all human behaviour and is a sigifcant part of the "Human condition" Dysfunction generated by paranoia such as Schizophrenia which is invariably paranoid based are just extreme examples of the issue.

the basic premise is flawed in that psychotic people generally do not fear loosing their mind, common medical understanding of psychosis is determined by the proposition that the patient does not have insight into their illness. what that means is the psychotic patient does not believe he is going insane he believes that he is of sound mind. he believes that the experiences he is having are not symptoms of a disorder. if he does not believe he is going mad what place does fear of madness have.

where i do see fear of insanity, is in patients with anxiety, panic, panic with agoraphobia, social anxiety and social phobia. all of the above illenss are dysfunctions of metacognitive process and are reported by patients as fear and thoughts about going mad, loosing the mind. in older populations the fears centre around fear of, and belief they have dementia.  <edited


i am wondering about how you arrived at this theory because i know that you are an intelligent and thoughtful individual so you are not just pulling ideas out of thin air and creating hypotheses from them.

having said that i am not so intelligent and only slightly thought ful so i have pulled my own theory out of thin air and created another hypothesis about how you constructed your hypothesis.

my geuss is (and i welcome you to deny or confirm my suspisions) that you are or have been working with people that have been diagnosed with a severe enduring mental illness but who are now currently experiencing only the moderate acute forms of illness such as the anxiety disorders that i mention in this post.

and/or you are constructing this hypothesis based on your personal experiences of mental illness which would also be along the lines of an anxiety/ panic disorder/ health anxiety.

anyway if i am wrong i would be interested to know where this idea orignated.

[ozziemate]

The idea originates from deep philsophical understandings about the nature of the human condition.

Psychosis wher by the person is ignorant of their "ignorance" [ note : ignorant of their "ignorance" is a statement that has taken nearly 6 years to arrive at and yet once arrived at makes a lot of sense - to me any way]

The fundamental premise is that when a person is suffering from persecution and intimidation fears they invariably amplify their belief in themselves as in a lot of cases very few people have maintained belief in them. So to compensate for the loss of credibility they build their own self belief to a point where it becomes almost totally blind to the objective reality and instead the persons world becomes in philosophical terms almost purely subjective with a splattering of objective reality to found it. [this process can happen very quickly - especially after some major self esteem destroying event has taken place.]
Thus it could be claimed that pyschosis ironically is a reaction to an intense fear of "self delusion" which no doubt others have instilled due to disagreeement with that persons initial beliefs. Therefore it coudl be argued that it is the fear of self delusion that generates the self delusion...
To maintain a claim of "No I am not self deluded" they amplify their self belief processes so much so that they blind them selves to any alternative reality.
The old "if you believe in it strong enough it will come true" applies most definitely in this case.
Of course this is not exclusively the domain just of pyschosis but fuels most belief systems whether they be founded in reality or not. And of course most beliefs are far from being founded and yet most people seem to function reasonably well.

"Belief is only a mere stepping stone on the path towards truth but when a person belives the belief to be a truth, that is when we have a psychosis" ~ ss 2007
from notes : differentiation between belief and knowledge"

[ozziemate]

i am wondering about how you arrived at this theory because i know that you are an intelligent and thoughtful individual so you are not just pulling ideas out of thin air and creating hypotheses from them.

having said that i am not so intelligent and only slightly thought ful so i have pulled my own theory out of thin air and created another hypothesis about how you constructed your hypothesis.

my guess is (and i welcome you to deny or confirm my suspisions) that you are or have been working with people that have been diagnosed with a severe enduring mental illness but who are now currently experiencing only the moderate acute forms of illness such as the anxiety disorders that i mention in this post.

I am currently about to publish a methodology on how to not only prevent the advent of significant mental health issues but also to offer sound theraputic solutions that can actually not only restore a person to a healthier state but also allow for the maturation that surviving these sorts of things can generate. Experience so far has been very promising, but needs proper recognition / assessment prior to becoming accepted mainstream professionals.

and/or you are constructing this hypothesis based on your personal experiences of mental illness which would also be along the lines of an anxiety/ panic disorder/ health anxiety.

SWM, we are all ill, in some way.

This planets population is all mentally ill and disturbed in some way. Abuse is always present in every one and it is the nature of evolution that the race slowly becomes "sane".

Of course I am also Human and have experienced all the complaints that I have researched in some form or another as have every other single person on this planet. It is all a matter of extreme and intensity and that is all. The basis of any theraputic solution is primarilly focussed on how to reduce emotional intensity thus mitigating the outcomes generated.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing as you wish, but it is when that belief has control over the person rather than the person having control over the belief that is in essence the issue.

IMO Belief alone does not make a person ill it is only how much you belief in that belief that can have that potential.

When a person says:
" I believe my beliefs to be "absolutely" true" you can state almost immediately we have a problem. [ the word "absolute" is usually implied and not spoken]

[voodoo scientist]

I think I get what you're saying, and if it is that (most disorders have a limited number of shared root causes, and it is much more effective to treat them than the symptoms), then I have a similar theory: the field of psychology has many 'sacred cows' that are cultural constructs which greatly complicate all aspects of treatment.

I'm talking very fundamental concepts that we assume are integral to 'being human' at all. You may have seen me rant about the concept of free will, and I believe free will is one of the many wrong base assumptions made in psychology. So is the notion of right and wrong, responsibility and the assumption that emotion is something sacrosanct and unmeasurable.

Even if I'm wrong about any one of these, consider the impact if any of these assumptions were decisively found to be wrong: if it was found that we don't have free will, capitalism and democracy would both be flawed concepts, as would every single type of government that has ever existed - even authoritarianism is based on the premise of controlling free will, and thus inherently acknowledges it.

If any of these are wrong, then we are all - almost every single member of the human species - making decisions based on fundamentally wrong assumptions every single day. Virtually every single decision made rests on these principles, from the micro to macro scale: remove any of these concepts and the whole basis for human society and existence on Earth changes dramatically. I believe the particular assumption you've latched onto in this case is the concept of a "self", "soul" or other cohesive identity - if there is a self, there's control, so there's control to be lost - if there is no self, "control" doesn't even apply, so you can't lose it.

If that sounds like what you're publishing, then good luck with it. If not, then I'll start a separate thread.

[ozziemate]

I think I get what you're saying, and if it is that (most disorders have a limited number of shared root causes, and it is much more effective to treat them than the symptoms), then I have a similar theory: the field of psychology has many 'sacred cows' that are cultural constructs which greatly complicate all aspects of treatment.

I'm talking very fundamental concepts that we assume are integral to 'being human' at all. You may have seen me rant about the concept of free will, and I believe free will is one of the many wrong base assumptions made in psychology. So is the notion of right and wrong, responsibility and the assumption that emotion is something sacrosanct and unmeasurable.

Even if I'm wrong about any one of these, consider the impact if any of these assumptions were decisively found to be wrong: if it was found that we don't have free will, capitalism and democracy would both be flawed concepts, as would every single type of government that has ever existed - even authoritarianism is based on the premise of controlling free will, and thus inherently acknowledges it.

If any of these are wrong, then we are all - almost every single member of the human species - making decisions based on fundamentally wrong assumptions every single day. Virtually every single decision made rests on these principles, from the micro to macro scale: remove any of these concepts and the whole basis for human society and existence on Earth changes dramatically. I believe the particular assumption you've latched onto in this case is the concept of a "self", "soul" or other cohesive identity - if there is a self, there's control, so there's control to be lost - if there is no self, "control" doesn't even apply, so you can't lose it.

If that sounds like what you're publishing, then good luck with it. If not, then I'll start a separate thread.

rather inspiring post Voodoo scientist.
The trouble with such approaches is that, as you are no doubt already aware,  you are taking an absolutists position. As I do and have done on many occasions.
Applying "absolutism" to a subject can do amazing things as far as personal growth and insight and simultaneously generate societal alienation and isolation as certain truths about self are revealed.
That said doesn't imply that one should not do so in fact it is only when looking at terms in absolute ways one can actually get rid of all the hubris that confuses and obscures the solutions you are looking for. So many people allowing mediocracy to rule their thoughts.
You have touched upon freewill as an absolute concept, as with identity of self and mentioned root aspects of human psychology. No doubt you have worked on issues such absolute objectivity and it's companion absolute subjectivity and so on.....these endeavours can be most enlightening and surprisingly difficult to do.

So yes when I have tested the statement The fear of loosing control or the fear of losing ones mind is at the root of all sentience I do not mean it lightly or in non-absolute terms. I am referring to it as the essence of what maintains "sanity" [order] and that when it is dysfunctional "insanity" [chaos] is the outcome.
In a therapeutic sense it is only when family and medical support staff realise that a disturbed patient or client is in a "do or Die" situation that their treatments can be most effective. To say "Oh it'll be ok here is a tablet that will mollify your anxiety" they are simply denying the reality of what is happening not only to the client but also to themselves and the society they live in.

It is a part of human nature to deny what it fears as  way of maintaining their sense of status quo and their reluctance to endure the suffering needed to move forward to greener pastures.

Do you think this is a fair assessment of your approach and mine?

[ozziemate]

I believe the particular assumption you've latched onto in this case is the concept of a "self", "soul" or other cohesive identity - if there is a self, there's control, so there's control to be lost - if there is no self, "control" doesn't even apply, so you can't lose it.

this is incredibly profound IMHO and deserves a thread on it's own any way.....you can only lose what you have , not what you haven't and when one fears losing self control then they have already lost it...

[SWM]

The idea originates from deep philsophical understandings about the nature of the human condition.

Psychosis wher by the person is ignorant of their "ignorance" [ note : ignorant of their "ignorance" is a statement that has taken nearly 6 years to arrive at and yet once arrived at makes a lot of sense - to me any way]

could you explain more about the development of psychosis and or schizophrenia according to your philosophical understanding.

The fundamental premise is that when a person is suffering from persecution and intimidation fears they invariably amplify their belief in themselves as in a lot of cases very few people have maintained belief in them.

you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.

Thus it could be claimed that pyschosis ironically is a reaction to an intense fear of "self delusion" which no doubt others have instilled due to disagreeement with that persons initial beliefs.

i think you are putting the cart before the horse.  you are explaining how a person becomes ill as a reaction to the symptoms of their illness.

The old "if you believe in it strong enough it will come true" applies most definitely in this case.
Of course this is not exclusively the domain just of pyschosis but fuels most belief systems whether they be founded in reality or not. And of course most beliefs are far from being founded and yet most people seem to function reasonably well.

"Belief is only a mere stepping stone on the path towards truth but when a person belives the belief to be a truth, that is when we have a psychosis" ~ ss 2007
from notes : differentiation between belief and knowledge"

i do agree that dysfunctional beliefs are a huge aspect of psychotic disorders.

I am currently about to publish a methodology on how to not only prevent the advent of significant mental health issues but also to offer sound theraputic solutions that can actually not only restore a person to a healthier state but also allow for the maturation that surviving these sorts of things can generate. Experience so far has been very promising, but needs proper recognition / assessment prior to becoming accepted mainstream professionals.

i would certainly be interested in understanding more of this methodology. i do believe that the current attitude towards severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and psychosis do not allow for the person to grow from their experinces, people are protected from their suffering in such way that they are denied the opportunity to develop an understanding of their mind and its relation to their reality.

[ozziemate]

you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.

And what do you believe is the patients state of mind leading up to onset of such symptoms as auditory hallucinations?
Normally a person just doesn't go from being "normal" and healthy of mind to hallucination with out some degradation. It is proposed that that initial degradation is caused by the onset of paranoia, due to either no advice, bad advice, over emphasis on sensational medical opinion and statistics and so on....leading eventually to the state where the mind is now over loaded with the stresses associated and starts to express itself vividly not only in an auditory fashion but also often in a visual fashion.
Also it is as I said in the maintenance of a healthy mind that fear plays a significant role in keeping things in check so to speak. It is when this fear based maintenance becomes extreme due to fears and stresses that paranoia sets in leading to severe situations such as those you have described.
So yes at this stage the horse "fear" is well before the cart...and as yet I have not found reason to change my opinion.
Also as a nother angle....
Most "normal " people constantly suffer minor glitches in their perceptions and think nothing of it. Hear sounds that don't have any reality to them and generally treat them as inconsequential and like wise with visual errors of perception.
I am suggesting that when a person starts to consider these routine and insignificant errors with emphasis we can start to see paranoia and fear of losing your mind set in to the point where the whole tapestry of mental order can be fragmented.

Example:
Years ago I noticed for the first time a little squiggly line had formed in my field of vision. I was concerned that I had developed a mental problem becaus ethe squiggly thing didn't appear to be associated with either eye. After about 2 weeks of brroding an dworrying I decided fortunately to go to my GP nd ask the questions I needed to ask.
The GP [ old family doctor] just smiled and said "me we are getting older aren't we?" Going on to state that the squiggly thing was comonly referred to as a floater and was benign and harmless and a part of getting older. [ I was about 22 years old at the time]
So I left the surgery greatly relieved and thankful that I had got the courage to go see him. However I do recall starting to fret about getting older as I left the surgery [ chuckle]
The poitn being that depending on my state of mind and other factors happening in my life at the time I coudl have developed a serevr fear based problem [ anxiety] leading possibly on to eventually psychosis...as my fear of degrading perception [ not just vision] increased over time [ I thought I was imagining this squiggly thing as it didn't appear to be at all real.] I might add 30 years alater I still have it and it gives me something to do when I am bored. Moving it around with my "mind" and not my eyes fills in time every now and then.

[ozziemate]

i would certainly be interested in understanding more of this methodology. i do believe that the current attitude towards severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and psychosis do not allow for the person to grow from their experinces, people are protected from their suffering in such way that they are denied the opportunity to develop an understanding of their mind and its relation to their reality.

Illnesses such as schizophrenia can IMO be an incredible opportunity to develop self restraint and matur in ways that normal people can't.
Schizophrenia if treated properly by society and the patient themselves can be an incredible opportunity to explore ones potential.
In Yoga it is often refered to as an "ungoverend awakening of the third eye chakra" and treated accordingly [a couple of art house movies have been made on the subject] It is unfortunately loaded with intense cnfusion and suffering and if not given the correct support can be devestating however if given the right support and understanding [ as they tend to do in Eastern theoretics and philosophy] the suffering can be endured and the person can even go onto a state of "sage" or a person with great wisdom borne of suffering....
Learning to control the imagination is probably the hardest thing a person can ever hope to acheive.

So there are ways of looking at this condition as either a huge burden when we think of the Western ' must have it now " mentality or a huge potential for a persons growth and not only in this life time either....[ Eastern beliefs concernng reincarnation and so on play asignificant role in societal attitudes and support.
The West hoever is onlyinteretsted as a rule in productivity and making the best of a limited life time, thus time pressure in the West for results is huge compared to the East....and so on... write a book or two and you would only be touching on the subject...

[voodoo scientist]

So yes when I have tested the statement The fear of loosing control or the fear of losing ones mind is at the root of all sentience I do not mean it lightly or in non-absolute terms. I am referring to it as the essence of what maintains "sanity" [order] and that when it is dysfunctional "insanity" [chaos] is the outcome.

We're not quite on the same wavelength, but I think we're at least in the same ballpark. Where we differ exactly is in this quote: you are saying that the question of control is at the root of all sentience. I am saying that it has nothing to do with sentience at all - like a global red herring.

[SWM]

you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.

And what do you believe is the patients state of mind leading up to onset of such symptoms as auditory hallucinations?

individuals are unique and the development of psychosis will be unique to that individual, there are certain recognised precipitating factors, but not everybody that develops a psychotic illness will experience those precipitating factors. for some people their symptoms are spontaneous without any precipitating factors. to use my own illness as an example the precipitating factors was an attempted murder on myself, my fear was founded in reality people did want to kill me, my paranoia grew from people wanting to kill me to everybody wanting to kill me. my delusions and hallucinations developed around this idea that i was marked for death. during this time i never once questioned my own sanity. my psychosis began to develop after two years of living in this state of fear. schizophrenia was diagnosed in the third year.

Normally a person just doesn't go from being "normal" and healthy of mind to hallucination with out some degradation.

this is true but the degradation you speak of is not necessarily "the of fear of losing ones mind".

It is proposed that that initial degradation is caused by the onset of paranoia, due to either no advice, bad advice, over emphasis on sensational medical opinion and statistics and so on....leading eventually to the state where the mind is now over loaded with the stresses associated and starts to express itself vividly not only in an auditory fashion but also often in a visual fashion.

paranoia can devleop for many reason besides those that you present here.

Also it is as I said in the maintenance of a healthy mind that fear plays a significant role in keeping things in check so to speak. It is when this fear based maintenance becomes extreme due to fears and stresses that paranoia sets in leading to severe situations such as those you have described.
So yes at this stage the horse "fear" is well before the cart...and as yet I have not found reason to change my opinion.

i dont dispute the fact that fear is a preciptiating factor, what i do dispute is fear of losing ones mind being THE factor, which is what you seem to be suggesting in your posts above.

Also as a nother angle....
Most "normal " people constantly suffer minor glitches in their perceptions and think nothing of it. Hear sounds that don't have any reality to them and generally treat them as inconsequential and like wise with visual errors of perception.
I am suggesting that when a person starts to consider these routine and insignificant errors with emphasis we can start to see paranoia and fear of losing your mind set in to the point where the whole tapestry of mental order can be fragmented.

i do agree with this only to the point where you say fear of losing the mind, if you have ever worked with patients during acute phases of pscyhotic illnessess you will recognise that they do not have any fear of losing their mind. most often they do not believe there is anything wrong with them. the psychotic patient does not have insight into the fact they are ill. they believe that their delusions and hallucinations are real. this is fundamental aspect of the definition of psychosis. 

[ozziemate]

So yes when I have tested the statement The fear of loosing control or the fear of losing ones mind is at the root of all sentience I do not mean it lightly or in non-absolute terms. I am referring to it as the essence of what maintains "sanity" [order] and that when it is dysfunctional "insanity" [chaos] is the outcome.

We're not quite on the same wavelength, but I think we're at least in the same ballpark. Where we differ exactly is in this quote: you are saying that the question of control is at the root of all sentience. I am saying that it has nothing to do with sentience at all - like a global red herring.

can I ask how this quote from the OP sits with you?

It seems that every minute of the day is spent ensuring order in our lives is maintained. It appears that a great percentage of our energy is devoted to this constant task. For some it is relatively easy being blessed with great circumstances and life style with adequate support and nurturing. For others it can be extremely difficult when living in precarious surrounds, little certainty about what the future holds and self destructive relationships.

and ask if you agree with it's general thrust what emotions are involved "driving" that desire for order?
and then go on to define what sentience means. If there is chaos can sentience exist?
Ever witnessed catatonia? Is a catatonic patient sentient?

[ozziemate]

you are missing something of immense proportion to the subject. at this point the patient is already ill. persecution and intimidation fears are in response to the symptoms of psychosis. using auditory hallucinations as an example. A patient hearing voices is not hearing voices because they fear they are going mad. they hear voices and then they may fear they are going mad. speaking generally of course not all cases will be as clear cut as that. other patients may hear voices and believe they are in communion with god. fear of madness as far as i am aware is not a recognised feature of psychotic disorders. it is a recognised feature of the anxiety disorders.

And what do you believe is the patients state of mind leading up to onset of such symptoms as auditory hallucinations?

individuals are unique and the development of psychosis will be unique to that individual, there are certain recognised precipitating factors, but not everybody that develops a psychotic illness will experience those precipitating factors. for some people their symptoms are spontaneous without any precipitating factors. to use my own illness as an example the precipitating factors was an attempted murder on myself, my fear was founded in reality people did want to kill me, my paranoia grew from people wanting to kill me to everybody wanting to kill me. my delusions and hallucinations developed around this idea that i was marked for death. during this time i never once questioned my own sanity. my psychosis began to develop after two years of living in this state of fear. schizophrenia was diagnosed in the third year.

Normally a person just doesn't go from being "normal" and healthy of mind to hallucination with out some degradation.

this is true but the degradation you speak of is not necessarily "the of fear of losing ones mind".

It is proposed that that initial degradation is caused by the onset of paranoia, due to either no advice, bad advice, over emphasis on sensational medical opinion and statistics and so on....leading eventually to the state where the mind is now over loaded with the stresses associated and starts to express itself vividly not only in an auditory fashion but also often in a visual fashion.

paranoia can devleop for many reason besides those that you present here.

Also it is as I said in the maintenance of a healthy mind that fear plays a significant role in keeping things in check so to speak. It is when this fear based maintenance becomes extreme due to fears and stresses that paranoia sets in leading to severe situations such as those you have described.
So yes at this stage the horse "fear" is well before the cart...and as yet I have not found reason to change my opinion.

i dont dispute the fact that fear is a preciptiating factor, what i do dispute is fear of losing ones mind being THE factor, which is what you seem to be suggesting in your posts above.

Also as a nother angle....
Most "normal " people constantly suffer minor glitches in their perceptions and think nothing of it. Hear sounds that don't have any reality to them and generally treat them as inconsequential and like wise with visual errors of perception.
I am suggesting that when a person starts to consider these routine and insignificant errors with emphasis we can start to see paranoia and fear of losing your mind set in to the point where the whole tapestry of mental order can be fragmented.

i do agree with this only to the point where you say fear of losing the mind, if you have ever worked with patients during acute phases of pscyhotic illnessess you will recognise that they do not have any fear of losing their mind. most often they do not believe there is anything wrong with them. the psychotic patient does not have insight into the fact they are ill. they believe that their delusions and hallucinations are real. this is fundamental aspect of the definition of psychosis. 

Firstly we shall have to agree to disagree...so that discussion can continue...agree?

Secondly I feel you are looking at the issue of psychosis superficially and from a conscious [ at the time ] persepctive.
I am attempting to look considerably deeper into the issue and note as an example that every new born baby most likely comes into the world in a state of fear....and that every person you meet in the street or online is also in a constant state of fear that may or may not be present with emphasis in their conscious thoughts as it is a part of every day life from the day we are born to the day we die.
If we can agree to the above we may be able to  move forward. If we can't then we can't.

[SWM]

i realised last night that i was doing something which i usually do not do, i was debating about whether something is true or not.

i think because this subject is so personal to me, this is my life and my work, my illness has made me who i am and i care very much about the people i work with, and so i found myself drawn into this debate.

OM
when i remembered myself last night i realised that what you (OM) believe is true, and if you base a methodololy on what you believe and it works and if you can impart what you believe to your patients with the same level of conviction as yourself, then your methodology will be successful.

[ozziemate]

i realised last night that i was doing something which i usually do not do, i was debating about whether something is true or not.

i think because this subject is so personal to me, this is my life and my work, my illness has made me who i am and i care very much about the people i work with, and so i found myself drawn into this debate.

OM
when i remembered myself last night i realised that what you (OM) believe is true, and if you base a methodology on what you believe and it works and if you can impart what you believe to your patients with the same level of conviction as yourself, then your methodology will be successful.

yes indeed it is personal, no doubt about it.
As to whether of not what I have proposed is true is really only going to be found by the test of time, the natur of Truth being always elusive. However be that as it may, possibly it is true-er than what we have so far and that may be a step forward in the right direction.

Thinking on it today I realised I had forgot to discuss the main reason I tended towards this position on fear.

I found after some deep introspection years ago that it is the metaphysical nature of the mind to worry and worry about every thing that touches it. It is it's nature to dissect, to analyse an to solve problems only because if it does not the problems remain unsolved nor understood to the detriment of the thinker. [ nothing new about any of this but had to find out myself hey]
This is normally even for relatively healthy people a part of our nature we always monitor. [ how much we are worrying about things] but when something unusual touches us , whether that be change of an unusual kind or extremes of a psychic nature [ mind revelations] the worrying can intensify enormously and lead to significant degradation of a persons ability to function. Obsessive Compulsive disorder is one such complaint. Persistent worrying can be addictive and intractable unless treated with appropriate therapy.

Excessive worrying is inevitably the outcome of paranoia or irrational reactions to that which we fear and most of the time it has an ego or self esteem foundation to it. IMO
So psychosis can be generated by the fear of being disbelieved or the fear of losing credibility or the fear of entrapment, conspiracy an worrying about things that others do not concern themselves too much about excessively.
As evidenced by mass hysteria pheno. shown on certain occassions fear is also "contagious" and can generate fear. The fear of fear etc etc...

So yes , I tend to feel that it is something that needs a thorough look at and considerable research before any really strong conviction can be made, but it is worth having a good look at IMO.
With out the coherency to understand what we are aware of. To exist with out order in our thoughts so that we can "live" in our own picture is essentially what this fear of losing our minds is. That one day we shall wake up and all we take for granted will have scrambled into a irrational and chaotic mess and that our lives are over even though we are still living.
As you SWM know this is a dreadful state of mental condition and one all of us fear ever having to go there. YOU have and you have survived and a pat on the back is warranted for doing so and doing so so well and most importantly managing to come back to reality with the maturity and wisdom gained that only suffering can grant you.
Not many people [ only 55% on last count] survive this issue enough to lead reasonably successful lives [ usually heavilly medicated]. If fear based therapies were established in a proper therapeutic environment the percentage of success could be significantly improved upon. Especially if exposure therapy was conducted in a realistic way. It is however a very long process of recovery, and most family and medical professionals have not the resources to devote >10 years to helping someone achieve success. This is a sad truth..

When most people are diagnosed they are usually not informed about the length of time necessary to treat these types of psychoytic conditions using current methods. Telling a patient who has had an onset that he will be sick for at least 10 years if all goes well before getting a glimmer of success is usually a death sentance...It takes time and usually signifcant amounts of time to get into a routine that inspires recovery and most families and patients just don't like that idea at all...so a bandaide called anti-psychotic medication is applied for the quickest fix with no to little therapy applied or given [ theraputic outcomes are historically poor if I am nto mistaken]. And well what that means is good for another thread....

[SWM]

how might you collect evidence to support your ideas?

[SWM]

I believe the particular assumption you've latched onto in this case is the concept of a "self", "soul" or other cohesive identity - if there is a self, there's control, so there's control to be lost - if there is no self, "control" doesn't even apply, so you can't lose it.

If that sounds like what you're publishing, then good luck with it. If not, then I'll start a separate thread.

looking forward to it,

[SWM]

OM, do you have early intervention teams in psychosis teams where you work?

[ozziemate]

Yes we have in the State of Victoria, Australia what are called C.A.T. teams [ Crisis Assessment and Treatment] These teams of qualified mental health professionals will respond if possible to any crisis that has occurred. Their main goals are in order of priority are containment,  management and transportation and hospital bed facilitation. Tough job IMO.

[SWM]

just a quick link about Early Intervention Teams http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/25/4/146

i'll get back to you in the morning about this.