Author Topic: Elephants have souls?  (Read 1420 times)

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anaklio

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Elephants have souls?
« on: June 12, 2009, 01:46:39 AM »
A new study Plotnik et al. (2009) shows that elephants recognize themselves in a mirror. A reasonable definition of a soul is something which comprises awareness, thought, emotion, and drive (Hinterhuber, 2002). Elephants seem to meet these criteria. Do elephants thus have souls?

Enigma

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2009, 07:00:12 PM »
That definition of soul is debatable.  I'd say elephants have self-awareness, but soul is stretching it.
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anaklio

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 11:53:08 AM »
Good point. Given this narrow definition of soul,  humans clearly have one. But as the definition gets broader it becomes unclear that even humans have a soul.

Enigma

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 08:52:00 AM »
What is a soul?  Do all animals have souls?    If they do, does that mean insects have souls?  Do amoebas have souls?  Do plants have souls?  Do cells have souls?  Does nature have a soul?  Or is a soul a trait unique to humans?  Is a soul the things that make humans unique from all other animals.  Metacognition, emotion, the capacity of the human mind to create art...or is a soul that spark, that lifeforce that unites every organism on the planet? 
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anaklio

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 12:50:25 PM »
We have evidence of "soul as self awareness" but we don't have evidence of "soul as ethereal object".

The evidence of "soul as self awareness" probably ends at insects. Insects have brains and thus some level of self awareness. Not sure fungi are aware, but I'll ask them and see ;-)

voodoo scientist

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 02:07:57 AM »
Insects have awareness, as do most organisms - that is, they're aware of their surroundings, but not aware that they're aware. So we've got sensory awareness (awareness of environment), cognition (awareness of awareness) and metacognition (awareness of awareness of awareness).

"Self awareness" doesn't exist, because there is no self. You can be aware of the individual processes that make up your mind and how they interact, but you can never be "aware of yourself" because it's nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 02:08:28 AM by voodoo scientist »
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Ajna

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2009, 03:09:36 AM »
I think your assuming alot about the awareness or lack there of, of "animals".

We base their intelligence and awareness on strictly human terms. Verbal communication... words... are like little boxes for our thoughts feelings to fit in; and they are all disgustingly too small. If a hawk cannot speak to you, or build a television.. we judge them as being stupid creatures.

I am a musician, and was traveling with an intelligent companion once who was not. He claimed that the guitarist of a dime a dozen pop-rock band was superior to me in terms of composition and playing because he was on the radio and I was not. I tried to explain to him the difference between making art and making fodder for the media... IE Miles Davis or Radiohead vs Brittney Spearse or Maroon 5. He literally could not understand. He brought up the example of a runner claiming " i could win this race, but i choose not to"  implying that the one and ultimate goal of a musician was record sales.
Before I risk digressing, I will tell you how this applies to my original point.

When a lion grazes in the field... is his mind blank? If not, is his mind just filled with thoughts of food and shelter? the same could be asked of the cow? The dog? The peace of a grazing animal brings alot of wisdom. Society has engraved an immesurable number of taboos and goals into our brains. Its psychological warfare that even the most perceptive of us fall victim to. Animals dont live by the same rules and limitations that we set for ourselves. The biggest problem we have is the opinion of our supposed superiority.. that does not allow room to believe that another creature could possibly be as deep or intelligent as us because they dont submit to such superficial aspirations as man. When we attempt to quantize the level of which an animal experiences life, we are only looking at it from the perspective of a human. There are things in reality that exist we are not capable of even comprehending much less sensing. Its a matter of perspective.

Karaten

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Re: Elephants have souls?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 03:22:31 AM »
You all know my definition of a soul, so I doubt it.

 


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