Fate,self-will and GOD

[liza123]

what do you think about fate or destiny? do you believe in destiny? or do you believe that everything is self-will?what role does God play in all these?

[anaklio]

People often say "you make your own destiny". I agree, but I think that's a bit of a trick we play on ourselves. Let's say you get a divorce. You could say "it was destined". That's not really true, but you can make it true in order to cope.

[liza123]

What about an accident? What about when you die?Is that not out of your hands? How do you explain such things?

[anaklio]

This may sound weird, but I think some people choose when they die. At some point, a few people give up and let themselves die. It's not suicide, it's more stopping their life. Isn't that in a sense themi creating their own destiny?

[liza123]

ha ha ha... i love that one. wish i could do that!

what about accidents?are they self-willed as well?what about babies? some want them badly and are told that they cannot get one according to so-called science...then, somehow or rather, they have one....then, there are ones who tried so hard for so many years(forget the latest medicine stuff!) and still could not have one...

[seekinghga]

what do you think about fate or destiny?

I play guitar to play guitar, not to some end.  I don't really look with an outlook.  I just do what I'm doing.

do you believe in destiny?

No, but I believe in navigation.

or do you believe that everything is self-will?

I do my will as I may.

what role does God play in all these?

That which I allow him to grab his greedy little paws upon.

[seekinghga]

What about when you die?Is that not out of your hands? How do you explain such things?

"Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.
The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory. He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings."

[liza123]

I play guitar to play guitar, not to some end.  I don't really look with an outlook.  I just do what I'm doing.
No, but I believe in navigation.
I do my will as I may.
That which I allow him to grab his greedy little paws upon.

it is good to know that you do whatever you are doing rather than moaning on fate or destiny....so, who navigates you?
doing your will as you may....hmmmm...do you know that it is said that GOd is within you?how sure are you that it is you who is doing as you will?
oh but then, God is not greedy...he is the loving as in "GOD is love"...he loves you!

[liza123]

"Ah! Ah! Death! Death! thou shalt long for death. Death is forbidden, o man, unto thee.
The length of thy longing shall be the strength of its glory. He that lives long & desires death much is ever the King among the Kings."

oh, dear! you will have to explain.i do not understand what you are trying to say!

[seekinghga]

oh, dear! you will have to explain.i do not understand what you are trying to say!

To me these words are as silver, to others ahead of me they are stones of precious water, among other things.  That is understanding enough.

[seekinghga]

it is good to know that you do whatever you are doing rather than moaning on fate or destiny....so, who navigates you?

I navigate myself, who else?  Further, the act of navigating does not imply that there is a fixed goal.  Though, as per my forum name, you could say that I do have one goal, but the destination is currently as malleable as my mind is.

doing your will as you may....

Yes, I do my will as I may.  One must keep in mind, though, that there are potential consequences to every action.  

hmmmm...do you know that it is said that GOd is within you?how sure are you that it is you who is doing as you will?

Hmmm... within me... though, some say, "so God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:27)  So, god must have poor self esteem if his idea of a self-image is bleating Sheep...

oh but then, God is not greedy...he is the loving as in "GOD is love"...he loves you!

Yeah, he loves you... so long as you do his will, follow his rules, are willing to sacrifice your first born (Abraham and Isaac), allow him to allow satan full reign over you and yet still love him (Job), love no other god but him, supplicate yourself to him, question nothing, follow everything, etc.

[edit]
I did not cast off Christianity overnight, as some may suppose.  For nearly two years did the fear of God and Hell hang over my head like a Sword of Damocles.  It was a very gradual, distressing, painstaking process that involved many a day of loathing and self-doubt.  But lo!, when I arrived out of that Twisted Valley, on the other side, there was no more doubt!  Amen.

[seekinghga]

As well, ask Lot about his love of God.  (Genesis 19:30-38)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%2019:30-19:36&version=9

[liza123]

you quoted a lot of religious verses...that is fine.but, instead of taking these verses literally, please understand that there are many verses in the bible(you need to understand the "true" meaning of the words...herein comes your spiritual level ,your guide(priest or whoever),etc...there are a few problems with all religions these days....people preaching as per their understanding(according to their mentality, spirituality, etc.), creating their own sects, etc.

In short, do not blame God for this....it is mankind 's problem...Jesus Christ gave you the real message...God is within you, God is love etc.(in simple terms)...to understand this is not easy....quoting verses just won't do,seekinghga!

saying that it is your will could be just an illusion that you have created for yourself...some things are within our will and some things are not. When ABE dreamt of his own death, He could have tried to stop it....but not if it was meant to be!
there are 3 things that blocks us in realising God(whatver name you call him!)...your ego,your illusions and your desires...
yes, it is a desire to seek God but such a desire is in pure form, born out of love....it does not block you but NAVIGATES YOU!

[liza123]

To me these words are as silver, to others ahead of me they are stones of precious water, among other things.  That is understanding enough.

Oh no, they are not. They simply mean that you are making your own assumptions....meaning this is your ILLUSION!

maybe, you should stop the drugs and drinking....they are having side effects on you

[seekinghga]

To me these words are as silver, to others ahead of me they are stones of precious water, among other things.  That is understanding enough.

The Law is for all.  I was wrong in being so ambiguous.

[voodoo scientist]

There is no evidence for the existence of anything resembling a classical notion of free will. On the contrary, all evidence points to human beings being restricted to only one choice at any given time: the perceived best choice.

[seekinghga]

There is no evidence for the existence of anything resembling a classical notion of free will. On the contrary, all evidence points to human beings being restricted to only one choice at any given time: the perceived best choice.

What about addicts who know that they are on death's door and yet continue to do their drug unto their death?  You call them fools?  You must be pretty well-guarded if you are to think that such things belong to people below you.  No evidence?  I want to scratch my neck, even if it doesn't itch, and I scratch my neck.  Is that not free will?  What is free will?  What is free?

[anaklio]

I think that they would argue the addict is making the best choice for them. However, this argument is tautological (circular).

The person made the best choice for them. How do you know that? That's the choice they made.
They made a choice. How do you know what choice? They always choose what's best for them.

[seekinghga]

I think that they would argue the addict is making the best choice for them. However, this argument is tautological (circular).

The person made the best choice for them. How do you know that? That's the choice they made.
They made a choice. How do you know what choice? They always choose what's best for them.

Yup.  I'm gonna drip all over this.  One does not conquer the universe "outward".  LOL.  Incubo Maya, tracto Maya.  Led Zeppelin tells us about relationship!  ...that and intercourse; discussion.

[voodoo scientist]

What about addicts who know that they are on death's door and yet continue to do their drug unto their death?  You call them fools?  You must be pretty well-guarded if you are to think that such things belong to people below you.  No evidence?  I want to scratch my neck, even if it doesn't itch, and I scratch my neck.  Is that not free will?  What is free will?  What is free?

Addicts who are on death's door yet continue to do their drug are doing so because they have no other choice. When weighing decisions, the mind (defined as the sense of self and identity, the "soul") uses the brain's reward system as perspective; a system that is directly manipulated by many psychoactive drugs. The same behavior has been observed in rats and cocaine, as well as rats and direct stimulation of the pleasure center. Rats who were given the ability to self-administer direct pleasure center stimulation would choose this at the expense of both food and procreational needs until they eventually died of starvation and dehydration.

Similarly, many drugs alter the brain's reward system, a critical component in every single decision you've made in your entire life which allows you to distinguish things that led to positive results from things that did not - in simple terms, they send a signal to the brain telling it "this behavior is good," making them good by definition when the choice presents itself again, even if every cognitive faculty is screaming "NO, BAD BRAIN, NO DESSERT TONIGHT!" The failure is cognitive in nature: the drug addict's lacking awareness of why they like something prevents them from making a rational long term choice about their behavioral patterns.

[liza123]

There is no evidence for the existence of anything resembling a classical notion of free will. On the contrary, all evidence points to human beings being restricted to only one choice at any given time: the perceived best choice.

so, what is your definition of a classical notion of free will?saying that all human beings are restricted to only one choice, the perceived best choice....are you trying to say that a person makes the decision based on this perceived best choice? so, where does this perceived best choice come from?what is the origin of this perceived best choice?please reflect on these questions and then, answer my post.

[liza123]

Similarly, many drugs alter the brain's reward system, a critical component in every single decision you've made in your entire life which allows you to distinguish things that led to positive results from things that did not - in simple terms, they send a signal to the brain telling it "this behavior is good," making them good by definition when the choice presents itself again, even if every cognitive faculty is screaming "NO, BAD BRAIN, NO DESSERT TONIGHT!" The failure is cognitive in nature: the drug addict's lacking awareness of why they like something prevents them from making a rational long term choice about their behavioral patterns.

what about addicts who were near death 's door and who came out of it? surely you are not going to say that they do not exist!how did they do so?what about people who were suffering from terminal illnesses having gone through all sorts of medications(drugs as you put them with effects on their brains not like drug addicts, but,then, the effects  are still there) and they are given a notice of few months to live....ever heard about their stories?
how they survived? they did not say, " i do not have any choice but to die in a few months because all the experts said so"

[voodoo scientist]

Please take a moment to conduct your own studies as well as contribute new information to the discussion before you begin the questionnaire. The answers to most of your questions are already available in existing psychology and neuroscience textbooks and journals, and the others I can't answer anyway.

[liza123]

Please take a moment to conduct your own studies as well as contribute new information to the discussion before you begin the questionnaire. The answers to most of your questions are already available in existing psychology and neuroscience textbooks and journals, and the others I can't answer anyway.

That is a very general statement which does not answer the questions I posed to you directly. It is not a questionnaire for people to fill up....

Furthermore, I started this thread as a means of exchanging opinions,having discussions,etc: not copying and pasting information. In simple words, you will have to "think" on your own rather than taking some statistical studies as evidence. What is true today can be different tomorrow...that is the FACT about studies etc. This does not mean that I am negating the veracity etc of the studies.

[anaklio]

Looking at data from a variety of sources and then drawing your own conclusion is called "synthesis". It appears to be rare in today's world, but we would all benefit from more of it.

[Enigma]

I want to scratch my neck, even if it doesn't itch, and I scratch my neck.  Is that not free will?  What is free will?  What is free?

Just playing the Devil's advocate here, but couldn't it be argued that the sense of self-satisfaction you get from exercising your perceived notion of free would constitute the aforementioned perceived best choice that we are restricted to?



Anyways, back on topic.  Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it, is a lie.  There is no meaning except that which we make for ourselves.  Every thing happens by chance.  Cosmic rolls of the dice.  Unbiased, unfeeling pure mathematics.  There are an infinite number of possibilities for every situation.  Some are good, some are bad, and some are neutral.  What determines the outcome of the situation?  Those cosmic dice rolls.  However, there are variables that effect these dice rolls. 

Take for example a car accident.  There's an infinite number of outcomes.  You could walk away fine, you could die, you could break your arm, you could get a scratch, etc, etc, etc.  It's a dice roll.  But there are also an untold number of variables that effect that roll.  How fast were you going, did you wear your seatbelt, were you sitting at the precise angle to avoid that lethal chunk of debris...the list goes on.  There much you can do to tip the odds in your favor (remember the difference between probability and odds.  Probability is favorable to total while odds is favorable to unfavorable).  Also, remember the butterfly effect. 

[anaklio]

>There is no meaning except that which we make for ourselves.

I completely agree with this. Yet we should always recognize that it may not be true. There could be something making us make our own personal truths. Many people call this something "god" but it could be aliens etc.

[voodoo scientist]

Just playing the Devil's advocate here, but couldn't it be argued that the sense of self-satisfaction you get from exercising your perceived notion of free would constitute the aforementioned perceived best choice that we are restricted to?

Anyways, back on topic.  Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it, is a lie.  There is no meaning except that which we make for ourselves.  Every thing happens by chance.  Cosmic rolls of the dice.  Unbiased, unfeeling pure mathematics.  There are an infinite number of possibilities for every situation.  Some are good, some are bad, and some are neutral.  What determines the outcome of the situation?  Those cosmic dice rolls.  However, there are variables that effect these dice rolls. 

Take for example a car accident.  There's an infinite number of outcomes.  You could walk away fine, you could die, you could break your arm, you could get a scratch, etc, etc, etc.  It's a dice roll.  But there are also an untold number of variables that effect that roll.  How fast were you going, did you wear your seatbelt, were you sitting at the precise angle to avoid that lethal chunk of debris...the list goes on.  There much you can do to tip the odds in your favor (remember the difference between probability and odds.  Probability is favorable to total while odds is favorable to unfavorable).  Also, remember the butterfly effect. 

The Devil appears to favor inconsistency today.

The problem with your post is this: Either there's no meaning except that which we make for ourselves (free will), or everything is preordained (fate), or everything happens by chance (randomness). They're all mutually exclusive, so pick one and start substantiating.

Take for example a car accident. There's only one possible outcome. Atoms and molecules bounce around affecting one another, the forces of nature pushing and pulling them according to unbreakable laws. Sypnaptic connections in the brain create the illusion of choice at every step of the way, each decision shaped by the movement and shifting of matter and energy. Behavioral patterns activate as the brain reacts to its environment in the only way it can according to the laws of physics until finally, a decision is made to push the car too fast. The hapless driver loses control, the car crashes, the driver dies.

Or alternately we can take, for example, a car accident: There are many possibles outcomes, depending on the choices the driver makes. Any choice unlocks a new tree of possibilities, each of which leads down a new path, until the conclusion is finally reached. The driver may be a cautious person, keeping his speed within control and making strategically good choices, or he may be an angry road rager seeking to vent his frustrations. He may or may not realize in time what he's done, he may or may not be aware of certain things - all of which plays into the final outcome, which could be virtually anything.

Or we could even take, for example, a car accident: ...