Pert -5 Talks Spirituality

[pert -5]

I wanted to create this thread so that I can furnish my personal definition of the word Spirituality.  As far as I know this is my own definition, but if I am wrong then please point that out.

First things first though.  I am going to give a definition for atheism.

Atheism - (n.)  the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods or the supernatural.

I took this definition off of the main page of the website for the Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc.  I trust this is an accurate definition of the term? ( http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/ )

Now that that is out of the way, here is my definition for Spirituality.

I define Spirituality as anything which facilitates the evolution of the consciousness and which lies flatly within the confines erected by the definition of the word  atheism. No supernatural entities or concepts of any sort are involved.  Some examples of Spiritual practices are Yoga, study of Kabbalah, psychotherapy, development of the will, entheogen use (I included entheogens because, a) they belong here, and b) Enigma said that he would punch my head in if I didn't include them), etc..

I think that this is a fairly comprehensive and accurate definition of my meaning for the word.  Let me know what you think.

[SWM]

so what about those things which people experience that are not objectively verifiable or open to scrutiny in a scientific way.

[pert -5]

Well, they fall short of what I mean by Spirituality.  They still occur, they can still bear meaning for the individual.  I just don't include them in my criteria for the concept.

[SWM]

fair enough.

this is your personal definition.

[pert -5]

Thanks SWM. 

From Liber ABA:

I) DEFINITION.
Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.

II) POSTULATE.
ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law, love under will.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

[Enigma]

so what about those things which people experience that are not objectively verifiable or open to scrutiny in a scientific way.

Some examples would be nice. 

Who says their not open to scientific scrutiny?

[pert -5]

Some examples would be nice.  

Who says their not open to scientific scrutiny?

True.  All things are open to skeptic, scientific enquiry.  It is whether or not they conform to modern science or not which distinguishes them as 'scientifically valid' or not.  Still, viewing god as one aspect of yourself on a mushroom trip would not qualify as 'scientifically valid'.  The question then comes down to objectivity vs. subjectivity.  But subjectivity includes our minds, which process reason and logic.  So logic and reason are born of a subjective process.  But logic and reason have been scientifically "proven" through a confluence of several accounts which say the same thing.

Objectivity is something which can be observed externally from the subjective awareness.  And yet the mind which produces such awareness is subjective, even though it depends from an objective, neuro-biological mechanism.

Hmm.

[S. Earl Martin]

A question comes to mind? Spirituality. If someone starts worshiping and inanamite object. I don't mean an idol, but like a piece of dog crap that looks like a phalus or something. Is that being spiritual? Or just weird? Where do we draw the line between a strange behavior and spirituality? 

[pert -5]

Worship of that variety is the antithesis of spirituality.  Are you talking about apophenia?  I say to you, dear Earl, that I believe thus.  Do not look to any one man for God, do not look in any church, do not look in any temple, you will not find Him.  Do not look to any symbol, do not look to any figure, do not look to any icon, do not look to any relic, do not look to any hierarchy or religion or status or rank or number or planet or book or quote or memo or message or prophet or race or creed or insight or wisdom or faith.  My dear Earl, you find God within yourself.  When you find God within yourself, you will have God in all things.  That I swear to you with all that I have of value of my being.

Namaste

[gone]

Finding god within yourself is your experience of spirituality. This can not be applied to everyone.
I figure from all my research all thoughts of 'god' are descended from ancient cults of sun worship. Therefore I can't find god, unless I find god in the sun. Which isn't impossible, if I was looking for a god, but I'm not because I consider god to be a manifestion of mans imagination. Therefore only from where he came he can be found (in the imagination).

But I observe such beauty in the natural world, in the smile of a mother to a child, in the formation of a wild poppy, the pattern of animal markings, the relationship between man and animal and the wonderful sky and sunshine. Which I consider a 'spiritual' experience.

I don't make a distinction between dog crap shaped like a phallus and toast with the face of jesus on.. they are exactly the same spiritual shite!

[pert -5]

Finding god within yourself is your experience of spirituality. This can not be applied to everyone.
I figure from all my research all thoughts of 'god' are descended from ancient cults of sun worship. Therefore I can't find god, unless I find god in the sun. Which isn't impossible, if I was looking for a god, but I'm not because I consider god to be a manifestion of mans imagination. Therefore only from where he came he can be found (in the imagination).

But I observe such beauty in the natural world, in the smile of a mother to a child, in the formation of a wild poppy, the pattern of animal markings, the relationship between man and animal and the wonderful sky and sunshine. Which I consider a 'spiritual' experience.

I don't make a distinction between dog crap shaped like a phallus and toast with the face of jesus on.. they are exactly the same spiritual shite!

psycho-mother, if you feel that I give advice errantly, if you think that I am not offering my friend the most honest advice of my heart, why don't you define the term, that I use, "God".  I'm not talking dictionary definition, god knows we've had enough of that (), define what I, pert -5, mean by God.  Do it, come on.  ?

[gone]

god only knows what you mean by god.

there, done it!

[pert -5]

How about when you replied to me with all of your interpretations of the word God?  Your reply being goaded simply by the fact that I used the term, thus implying that you "KNEW" what I meant.

Finding god within yourself is your experience of spirituality. This can not be applied to everyone.

I figure from all my research all thoughts of 'god' are descended from ancient cults of sun worship.

Therefore I can't find god, unless I find god in the sun. Which isn't impossible, if I was looking for a god, but I'm not because I consider god to be a manifestion of mans imagination.

Therefore only from where he came he can be found (in the imagination).

[gone]

Ok if we're being pedantic I was refering to this sentence you wrote:

"My dear Earl, you find God within yourself.  When you find God within yourself, you will have God in all things.  That I swear to you with all that I have of value of my being"

YOU ARE IN EFFECT TELLING EARL TO FIND GOD WITHIN HIMSELF, if you are not this sentence could have been written better to avoid misinterpretation.

YES GOD, THE IDEA OF RELIGION is descended from ancient worship of the sun. therefore if you're an occultist, a scientologist, a mormon or a zoastrian, the idea of god came from ancient sun worship, if not we wouldn't now spiritualism or god.

[SWM]

is it possible that you are looking for and finding information that fit your beliefs?

[SWM]

perhaps my above comment is hastily made and i am making an assumption about what you conclude from your findings.

you find that there are correlations between pagan cultures and modern religions, and that the sun is a the highest manifestation of god in this world. is that right so far? and then what do you think that  means?

[gone]

No I'm not fitting it into my beliefs. I look at things from many perspectives before concluding anything. If YOU think I am molding things to fit my beliefs I think that may be you, thinking I do that, but I don't and there is NO evidence to suggest I do that.

If you don't know modern religions are based on old religions I'm sure you soon will. Another 10 years this will be common knowledge.

What do you want to know? I've got all the answers now!

There is evicence all around you, look at buildings in towns and cities there are Green Men on them, Greek & Roman Gods (that replicate the Egyptian gods), the church is an excellent example, xmas is pagan, easter is pagan, the cross is pagan, look at Street names, St George's street, St. George like all the other christian stories and characters pre-dates christianity St George & the Dragon is Perseus slaying Medussa for Andromeda, can also be found in egyptian myth as Horus spearing an evil crocodlile. For one example. There are symbols and evidence all around.. you just have to know what it means and where it comes from.



"If Moses meeting with God at mount Sinai represents a Galactic Alignment (the sun’s conjunction with the Milky Way), then the Ark of the Covenant must be the container that stores this sacred knowledge.

When the Knights Templars on their crusades to Jerusalem found the remains of the destroyed temple of Jerusalem (Solomon’s temple), they discovered the ‘Holy Grail’. The ‘Holy Grail’ is most likely not an artefact, the chalice of the Last Supper but very likely ‘a secret’ that reveals the true origins of Christianity and its foundation on pagan traditions astrology and its ancient Egyptian-Sumerian-Babylonian roots.

I have explored a lot in coming to my conclusion I will list some sources here:
Osiris - Isis - Horus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Kabbalah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pico_della_Mirandola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89liphas_L%C3%A9vi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliester_Crowley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Osiris_and_Isis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomons_temple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man
http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/

Some serious research into Osiris/Isis/Horus is required to understand the Egyptian Trinity that's relevent today.

And understand thoroughly the symbols and significance of the freemasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons

Now there's just a small section of what I've researched. As modern christianity pre-dates christianity I have come to think that the Knights Templar did find evidence of this and possibly more, (the were gnostic NOT christians) the secrets they discovered were taken to Rossyln Chappel and filtered down through the Masons. The Masons responsible for architecture, Rossyln Chappel for example. This is why there is so much Egyptian symbology in Masonry, along with Kabbalah symbols and more symbols relating to ancient sun worship. Look at Freemasonry certificats they all give astrological references and sun woship symbology. They have the knowledge of 'englightenment'.. passed down through centuries. The symbol for egyptian god Ra (the sun) is a circle with a dot in it, the shape a compass would make.. I could go on and on.. but do your own research to 'enlightment' or 'illumination'...

See here for more info on astological/sun relevence de-coded in masonry.
http://www.soulsofdistortion.nl/2012_freemasons_revelations.html


Just google search - Christian Pagan Parallels or similar words. Or scientology for example takes the premise of kabbalah. So to answer your question, is the sun the highest manifestion of god in this world? well of course, to the ancients who saw it rise in the east and then die in the west every day they didn't know what it was or if it would come back, it was the 'light' the 'saviour' etc.. all biblical referenced to 'jesus' but replace the word jesus with the word 'light' and you're on you're way to understand why it's all astrological. Afterall if the sun wan't here, neither would we be. If you want to look beyond the sun (the ancient civilisations only knew of the sun/moon & stars) and this is from where they got their myths and their gods. Which are still with us today, just having been renamed.

If you're not going to get it, you're not going to get it. Because if you don't research or at least follow a link or two then maybe you are denying that, that doesn't fit with your scheme of things.

See this documentary on youtube.

[SWM]

did you read both comments, i  kind of retracted my first with the second?

i am not asking about old religions being the foundations of new this is common knowledge and most occultists are familiar with the sun and son analogy and with the crucified christ and the sun /sol. none of this is new, i am was just curious as to what conclusions you draw from this information? what is it that you think this means in relation to god and spirituality. or maybe what it gives you personally?

[SWM]

you might be interested in the symbolism of joshua also. although it is a bit more obscure in english and some understanding of  hebrew might benefit you. YHShH as the son of YHVH bringing the fiery spirit of the father into the world.

[pert -5]

Ok if we're being pedantic I was refering to this sentence you wrote:

"My dear Earl, you find God within yourself.  When you find God within yourself, you will have God in all things.  That I swear to you with all that I have of value of my being"

YOU ARE IN EFFECT TELLING EARL TO FIND GOD WITHIN HIMSELF, if you are not this sentence could have been written better to avoid misinterpretation.

YES GOD, THE IDEA OF RELIGION is descended from ancient worship of the sun. therefore if you're an occultist, a scientologist, a mormon or a zoastrian, the idea of god came from ancient sun worship, if not we wouldn't now spiritualism or god.

What's "pedantic"?  I think you're making it up.

OK, let's do this right.  At the top of my post I wrote that my concept of Spirituality conforms to atheism.  You follow me?  But I know Earl has a strong belief in God.  You still follow?  So I used the term God because I knew that that would have a more beneficial meaning to him, because I know he believes in God.  You still following?  I could have just as easily said "find the inner peace within and you will have peace in all."  Can you even follow?

And I don't care if SWM retracted his comment, "is it possible that you are looking for and finding information that fit your beliefs?"  He was spot on.

[gone]

Yes I've come across that before. Only Hebrew names for biblical characters though.

check out this picture of YHWH for symbolism :-)  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YHWH.JPG

see the pyramid? the sun burst? the clouds and angels - because it is astological, based on egyptian myths :-)


Sorry pert didn't mean to offend  


EDIT: you can't possibly have checked out those links, but instead send me YOUR scheme of things (hehe).. which is IGNORING what I say just making it fit with your scheme, to which I checked out and it happen to fit my scheme of things.. As it would because ultimately all that you will encounter will be referenced to previous sun worship, because it' had and still has (in various forms) such a massive presense. It is the SUN afterall.  

[S. Earl Martin]

Humans always build on the beliefs and ideas of previous generations and even civilizations. I don't find that so unusual. That different religions have similar concepts or even reinterpret things and incompase them. To me is not suprising. I would be more suprised if we found a truly unique religion or culture. Look at language for example. In english we have words from many cultures. There has been a push to make the U S english only. That would be impossible. English has words from so many different languages where would you draw the line?

With religion and the belief in God though the trappings are not what is important. God is what is important. What God told us to do is important. Love your neighbor as you love your self. Forgive and you will be forgiven. If I worship on Saturday or Sunday. Or the exact method I chose that is more custom. I have been asked by a number of people " how do you get to Heaven?" " What does it mean to have Jesus?" That is a hard question. I look at the "Christians" and I see some of the most mean and judgemental people I have ever seen for the most part. I look at other people who don't claim Christ, but are spiritual and they are more kind and loving by nature. The idea that a just God would allow people who do not follow the teaching of Christ to get in because they claim the name and allow others who do follow Christs teaching to go to Hell because they don't claim the "name". Makes no sense to me. So I tell them. Love everyone and do the best you can to be honest and to love God. Christ has many names. One of those names is God. The idea that only the name Jesus will save you in my opinion is a misinterptation of scripture. The name is not the important thing. Like it is a magic word. It is the instructions that we recieved that are important. If we follow them we are truly following God or Christ. It is not an outward, but an inward change. Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Christ or Messiah. He did die for the sins of all mankind. Of this I have no doubt. That Christ is returning to rule as King I also have no doubt. Peace.

[SWM]

@psychomother

i wasnt ignoring your schema by not checking the links just that i already know what you are talking about.

the links that you posted i am familiar with most of the content, not from wikipedia but just through other areas of interest.

if you look at some of our members you will notice they belong to member groups such as neophyte, zelator, practicus, philosophus, these are taken from the masonic initiation rites and was inspired by the rituals of Crowley

[gone]

Language is a good comparison.
If we had been taught in class that English language was a gift from God, the gift of civilisation in language, and this language had been scribed by a phrophet of God 5 thousand years ago. And English is the language of God, we would believe that, feel superiour than other languages and feeling like Gods special people.
Then one day people in england met people in france and they discovered that many english words were also french words, then they traveled further south and met spanish people, who again had many english words. English people became convinced these countries were theives of their sacred language and condemned them, however a few were curious and asked questions and read some literature and observed some statues and discovered that their sacred English language wasn't infact sacred or given from god but had instead developed from other languages of latin and of greek and of many other languages too. But more then it is discovered that the language they thought sacred had developed from noises made my cave men, oo aaa bbbbb ccceee etc...


Language has developed from ancient times. Religion has developed from ancient times. The modern auto mobile has developed from ancient times. Like a layer cake.

WHAT I CAN'T UNDERSTAND is like the language above, people who know it developed in caves from cavemen still choose to believe it was a sacred language given specially to english people by god. This is no different from God, spiritualism etc.. we know the origins YET PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE.. do they ignore where it came from? WHAT'S THE PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESS TO ENABLE THIS because I'm missing something. I DON'T GET IT.

I think organised religion, be it Christianity (it's funny how chrisitan videos on youtube don't allow comments).. i think they (genreally speaking but not you SE) are conditioned as part of their doctorine to be ignorant, feel superior, be blind and to condemn anything that contradicts their beliefs, there is definatly a feeling of RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG with chrisitans,islamist,jews etc.. they don't understand it's not right or wrong it's a DIFFERENCE a difference that they're not willing to explore so instead ignore and condemn as wrong, blasphemous/devil... it's brain damage surely.


Aleister Cowley was a mason, he's studied kabbalah and ancient egyptian and I can see how when a person comes across this information they can feel like they're the chosen one, chosen because god showed them this secret knowledge and for that they had to make good use of it, so interpret it and share it with the people, as did cowley.. But you have to admit his ideas and practices were that of a quak. Ehilias Levi (or whatever his name was also went the same way).. The masons warn against this in their teachings. It is very easy to be led astray down one avenue of thought and they know this.. and they warn about it.


 

[gone]

Just re: symbolism above, I thought I'd seen the YHWH symbol before, regardless that it's obviously a pryamid & sun the same features as the Freemasons emblem.
See these images for comparisons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YHWH.JPG
http://www.shadowresistance.com/masonic_symbol.gif

If a person can't see they're the same, they must be blind.

See here for some more

http://www.free-photos.biz/images/consumer_products/clothes/jhwh_skepparslov_masshake.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Jhwh_skepparslov_altare.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xRgZyOL5gRU/S7jmDzece6I/AAAAAAAAADk/mZR9aZQ8Fxo/s1600/welcome.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Jhwh_holo.jpg/120px-Jhwh_holo.jpg

Just thought it interesting.

[SWM]

do you understand what YHVH signifies or symbolises?

[gone]

Above you said "YHShH as the son of YHVH bringing the fiery spirit of the father into the world"

My understanding of YHVH signifies/symbolises God. Especially for Jews.

The symbol for YHVH is also the masonic symbol of their emblem, what's interesting is the symbol is identical except the freemasons have replaced the letters YHVH with the all seeing eye (eye of horus). Both of which are representative of the SUN (weather refered to as JHVH or the eye - they both mean SUN).

[SWM]

when I said above YHShH. I miss Spelt. it is YHShVH. the letters of YHVH are Yod He Vav He. the letter that is added is Shin. these symbolise the family of elementals. a family elements. a family has relationships. Yod Fire. He Water. Vav Air. He final Daughter. Shin which is in the Jesus, Joshua name is spirit. these complete the five elements on the pentagram. the 5 pointed star.

these elements themselves are symbols. these are not the earth, water, air and fire that we commonly think of, they symbolise qualities that we find in nature and in people.

[gone]

The letters (whatever verbal interpretation is derived - and often the masons mislead with their symbolism as does the symbolism take on new meanings over time with error of misinterpretation.. so let's forget the letters, the verbal interpretation because there is a million different verbal, language, metaphoric, spiritual, biblical, kabalic etc etc of these letters, so let's just put aside that and SEE with our own eyes what is presented. VISUAL symbols.

We have 2 organisations - One Jewish with the word YHVH and One Masonic. THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME VISUAL SYMBOL.. THIS ISN'T OPEN TO MISSINTEPRETATION AS IS LETTERS, WITH WORD OF MOUTH ETC. AS IT'S A VISUAL LOGO IT REMAINS STATIC.

So my point is JHVH and the Maons have the same logo with the same meaning. (SUN)

(above I said the masons replaced the letters JHVH with the image of the EYE, I don't know which came first or if indeed they weren't created at the same timeor if they were created by the same organisation)

The pentagram, whatever meaning you derive from that, is also a prominent symbol of the Mason. As much of every religion is from astronomy (not astrology) I would suggest it relates to the stars/planets and SUN
there is a demonstation here i'm more inclined to believe it symbolsim is galactic and alignment of the planets than representative of a few elements which in turn translate to spiritual meaning..  I don't buy into that one sorry..

Also interesting is the Star of David (associated with the Jews) a 6 pointed star of 2 trianges, one upside down on top of the other, this star is the Seal of Soloman from which Masons take much of their VISUAL symbols.
The Masons use visual language in symbols - as discussed before some people are more 'visual' than others but once pointed out they're obvious and can't be denied. If the masons used language to communicate secrets they would have used letters in code, but they use SYMBOLS.

But I don't think you're getting it. Others have though. I'm not alone in my discovery of this.

You can see they are the same, do you think it's coincidence & they represent different things?

[SWM]

did you research Yeshua, Joshua, Yod He Shin Vav he ?