religion and spirituality

[liza123]

 what is your definition of religion and spirituality?what is religion to you? what is spirituality to you?

[Enigma]

I see religion as the dogmatic, social control form of spirituality.  Spirituality is mankinds' desire to speculate on higher powers than ourselves.

[seekinghga]

Spirituality is directly proportionate to the act of dissolving one's self in the All (Tao, God, performing the Great Work, etc). 

Religion is just a template for that (see Enigma's post before mine).

[liza123]

I see religion as the dogmatic, social control form of spirituality.  Spirituality is mankinds' desire to speculate on higher powers than ourselves.

religion is defined as a way of life by some people. what sort of guidance would we have without religion?

[anaklio]

Spirituality is the belief in something greater than ourselves. Religion is the organization of those beliefs.

I have no problem with spirituality, the issues seems to come with religion.
This is particularly true when someone wants to force their way onto others.

[SWM]

religion is defined as a way of life by some people. what sort of guidance would we have without religion?

without religion we would probably have a plethora of self help books. oh! ... we do alreday have a plethora of self helps books. perhaps this is evidence of our cultural disssatisfaction with the orthodox religious teachings.

[anaklio]

Interesting point, SWM. There are so many changes in our new world. Things like video stores and paper boys are on the way out. Could government and religion be next as people start to take more things into their own hands?

[seekinghga]

There are so many changes in our new world. Things like video stores and paper boys are on the way out. Could government and religion be next as people start to take more things into their own hands?

Not to butt in, but I don't think that government and religion are going anywhere anytime soon.  Further, I think that comparing those things to video stores and paperboys is not really that accurate.  For the most part we humans are in need of some form of authority.  Your statement strikes me as bearing a resemblance to the concept of utopia.  Call the connection an intuition if you will.

[Enigma]

religion is defined as a way of life by some people. what sort of guidance would we have without religion?

We'd have to think for ourselves and be responsible for our own actions.  Oh the horror!

[liza123]

without religion we would probably have a plethora of self help books. oh! ... we do alreday have a plethora of self helps books. perhaps this is evidence of our cultural disssatisfaction with the orthodox religious teachings.

But, SWM,  the book about "manifesting your destiny" or "power that comes from within" or whatever...the list goes on....do you know something? if you read all those so-called self-help books, you will realise that the basic is FROM RELIGION. funny, isn 't it?
people actually take the concepts preached in religions and promote as self-help books for us(in a way that people understand without the "decorations" or whatever)
i went for a motivation course. and i was very amused. do you why? because the basic of the course was"love thy neighbor"...meaning they were stressing so much on love,etc...promoted as a motivation course....

ps- i forgot the best part. my friend paid for my course because he was so very impressed(he even went for the advanced course). and then, eureka, he realised one day what it was really about...his religion has been promoting love, compassion and whatnot for ages....needs some modern way to convey the message, i suppose...not the orthodox way...

[liza123]

We'd have to think for ourselves and be responsible for our own actions.  Oh the horror!

but, enigma, with or without religion, we are still responsible for our actions. as a matter of fact, God gives you the choice to decide......

in simple words, religion is the foundation for spirituality. it does not mean that it is fool-proof(as a matter of fact, nothing is fool-proof). but, there are failings in terms of people preaching,misquoting, not understanding the meanings, etc...and this happens even in studies or whatever....human beings are not perfect!it is up to you decide and to understand the real meaning behind the words....

ps- that is why God gave you "brains" to "be responsible for your own actions by thinking".....sorry if i sound sarcastic but, i just could not help myself...he he he

[liza123]

Interesting point, SWM. There are so many changes in our new world. Things like video stores and paper boys are on the way out. Could government and religion be next as people start to take more things into their own hands?

perhaps, we can revert back to the prehistoric days...what with our cultural dissatisfacion with so many things in this world...government, religion, god, marriage and whatnot...

if only people will "look rather than simply see".......

ps- actually, that is what is predicted in most of the religions(not sure!)...the end of the world and a new beginning.

[anaklio]

Usually it's the end of the world and a new beginning AND THE CHOSEN FEW who do it.  These "chosen ones" are those who believe most ardently in the leader or the religion.

That latter part has always struck me as incredibly arrogant, but the whole thing is probably a scam designed to keep people under control.


It's getting harder to keep people under control though. The internet allows the ignorant to be enlightened. So perhaps we can do these changes in a positive way without the "apocalypse". Well that's what I hope (and pray ;-) for :-)

[liza123]

Perhaps, the "chosen ones" refer to those who have a high spiritual level, not ardently religious(meaning merely following the doctrines without really understanding the message behind the words). So, I do no think that it was meant to be arrogant or keeping people under control. The purpose is meant to make people the importance of "Think Good and Do Good"(in short).

I do not know,anaklio. The way the world is going, there might be the end of the world...though I hope not. Like you, I would prefer positive changes. Even the newspapers are "depressing" these days. Swine flu here, murder here(all sorts!),....

[voodoo scientist]

Religion and spirituality are proto-psychology, an attempt to understand human existence. The primary difference between the two is that religious people are driven by conviction, while spiritual people are driven by the opposite, the search for conviction.

[S. Earl Martin]

That is a very blatant generalization of peoples beliefs. To me that would be no different than if I said Atheists are all self absorbed. It might be true in some cases, but would not be true in all. Some people who are religious just follow the dictates of the leaders of the religion. That is not true for all. I have been asked or told to leave so many churches because I was either to liberal, or consertive, or whatever. The problem is that the dogma preached is designed to keep the powers that be in control in modern religions. When someone comes along and really points out what the book or teachings say it rocks the boat of the leaders and they can't have that. They have carefully crafted the intreptation of the doctrine to suite there needs and they won't allow any other interpretation. Even if it is true. The belief that religious people are all mindless drones is a prejudice and a sterotype. I have the ability to think for myself and I make concious decisions based on my personal beliefs. Love is the only answer!

[voodoo scientist]

That is a very blatant generalization of peoples beliefs. To me that would be no different than if I said Atheists are all self absorbed. It might be true in some cases, but would not be true in all. Some people who are religious just follow the dictates of the leaders of the religion. That is not true for all. I have been asked or told to leave so many churches because I was either to liberal, or consertive, or whatever. The problem is that the dogma preached is designed to keep the powers that be in control in modern religions. When someone comes along and really points out what the book or teachings say it rocks the boat of the leaders and they can't have that. They have carefully crafted the intreptation of the doctrine to suite there needs and they won't allow any other interpretation. Even if it is true. The belief that religious people are all mindless drones is a prejudice and a sterotype. I have the ability to think for myself and I make concious decisions based on my personal beliefs. Love is the only answer!

None of that has anything to do with what I said.

[S. Earl Martin]

On the contrary. You made a broad generalization about religious people and spiritual people which says they are all like this. If you follow the scientific method you hold so dear you should know that you can't say all this group of people are like this or that. You can't know that without checking if every person conforms to your assertion. And even then if it was possible to check that information it would be subject to continued change and your data would be invalid as soon as you acquired it. Science is a two edged sword. If you require others to conform to it you will be required to do the same. Actually only the first part applies to what you said. The rest was in response to previous posts.  

[SWM]

Religion and spirituality are proto-psychology, an attempt to understand human existence.

this is your opinion you stated it here as though it were a fact.  i have an opinion which is similar to this but i recognise that this is a judgement i have made based on my experience of religion and spirituality. my opinion differs slightly. i believe that what we have come to know as religion are peoples transcripts, records, teachings and interpretations of their experience of what we know call spirituality.

The primary difference between the two is that religious people are driven by conviction, while spiritual people are driven by the opposite, the search for conviction.

again this is your opinion and you have stated as though it were a fact. i have to disagree. i would consider myself a spiritual being. infact i would consider myself a being more of spirit than matter, for i see matter as a dense form of spirit. where i disagree with your last statement is that i do not search for conviction. i have experience and that gives me understanding and wisdom which brings me peace and therefore i do not search or seek. i am and i am being. 
 

[voodoo scientist]

Let me rephrase, since neither of you seemed to understand what I was saying.

Religious people do not think "just follow the dictates of the leaders of the religion," and I never said they did. They think "I'm sure this is how the world works for these undeniable reasons." That is what conviction is, nothing more. What you claim I said automatically popped up in your head as the "true meaning" of my words because you already believed me to be anti-religious. I never said or implied that religious people are "mindless drones." I never even raised the possibility. In short, S. Earl Martin, you're making up lies about me, you naughty person you!

Moving on to SWM's post - Yes, that is my opinion. You can tell because I stated it, so there is no need for a qualifying statement like "I think" unless I assume the reader is a banal moron, and I wouldn't do that. That would be respectless. You're right though, while I understand religion and the reasons for believing in it, I largely have no idea what "spirituality" is and mostly consider people who adhere to the word to be vague and largely incoherent. If you can enlighten me, it would be most appreciated, as most attempts to explain it to me have typically led to a great barrage of undefinable buzzwords, followed then by an equally great barrage of hateful hate from me.

For instance, what is "spirit" in terms I could understand? Who defines "wisdom", "peace"? Are those concepts as professed by you useful to me in any way, or are they entirely subjective and unexplainable?

[SWM]

You're right though, while I understand religion and the reasons for believing in it, I largely have no idea what "spirituality" is and mostly consider people who adhere to the word to be vague and largely incoherent.

you are saying you do not understand people who have a different culture and values, who speak a different language and live in a different reality to you. i think you can be forgiven for that. many people who adhere to the word spirituality will no have not understand you either. can you forgive them for that?  it seems not, that is why you experience hatred and anger.

If you can enlighten me, it would be most appreciated, as most attempts to explain it to me have typically led to a great barrage of undefinable buzzwords, followed then by an equally great barrage of hateful hate from me.

For instance, what is "spirit" in terms I could understand? Who defines "wisdom", "peace"? Are those concepts as professed by you useful to me in any way, or are they entirely subjective and unexplainable?

i used the terms wisdom and peace in the popular and widely accepted defintion that you will find in most dictionaries.  spirit i could not explain in any terms you could understand, perhaps it is close to what S.Earl.Martin terms "Life Energy", consciousness is another close approximation. it is something that is experienced, witnessed if you like.

[S. Earl Martin]

First I do not lie.
Second everything is not all about you.
Third My statements were meant as informational commentary. Not all of them apply to your statements.
The statements that apply directly to your statements are clearly referenced. Again you are using the same diversionary tactic I have pointed out before. Trying to avoid the subject by changing the subject or switching the focus to me in this case.

[voodoo scientist]

you are saying you do not understand people who have a different culture and values, who speak a different language and live in a different reality to you. i think you can be forgiven for that. many people who adhere to the word spirituality will no have not understand you either. can you forgive them for that?  it seems not, that is why you experience hatred and anger.

i used the terms wisdom and peace in the popular and widely accepted defintion that you will find in most dictionaries.  spirit i could not explain in any terms you could understand, perhaps it is close to what S.Earl.Martin terms "Life Energy", consciousness is another close approximation. it is something that is experienced, witnessed if you like.

Oh, I'm just being silly with the hateful hate. If I hated, I wouldn't be trying to figure out why the people I don't understand think the way they do. They annoy me lightly, because they never seem quite sure of why they think the way they think, which gets in the way of obtaining information, but that's all. It's too bad. I have faith that some day, my search for the zen master of spirituality who can explain that whole kajigger to me will come to fruition, though. Until then, I guess I'll have to make do with just plain reason.

More on topic: Consciousness is a good synonym for spirit, but makes no sense in this context because things can't be "made of consciousness". There must be something to go on here, you didn't come up with this out of nothing. Let's try this - Your statement that "i see matter as a dense form of spirit" implies that you've considered existing theories of matter, then discarded them in favor of this spirit theory. What made you do that?

[SWM]

i think that consciousness is a close approximation. probably the closest word we have. one of the problems that you have in trying to understand us "spiritual types" is that we dont have the required vocabulary to explain our experiences. most of what we learn is learnt through direct experience on the inner planes of life, this subjective and personal experience is a unique journey to every individual and as such there is no common and shared vocabulary with which to discuss, describe and explain our world. the result is that we make up words or use existing words in new ways. so words such as energy, god, spirit, consciousness, higher self etc, are all attempts to find appropriate terminology. we also often rely on religion to provide us with words, context and meaning that we cannot find in our ecveryday lifes. (i have to state that i am speaking from my own experience and that may differ widely form the spiritual types i arrogantly began this paragraph speaking for.)

More on topic: Consciousness is a good synonym for spirit, but makes no sense in this context because things can't be "made of consciousness". There must be something to go on here, you didn't come up with this out of nothing. Let's try this - Your statement that "i see matter as a dense form of spirit" implies that you've considered existing theories of matter, then discarded them in favor of this spirit theory. What made you do that?

the "spirit theory" makes more sense (to me of course), the existing theories are an incomplete version of the "spirit theory".

[S. Earl Martin]

Sounds good to me! Seems like a pretty good discription of the situation. Thanks!

[liza123]

i think that consciousness is a close approximation. probably the closest word we have. one of the problems that you have in trying to understand us "spiritual types" is that we dont have the required vocabulary to explain our experiences. most of what we learn is learnt through direct experience on the inner planes of life, this subjective and personal experience is a unique journey to every individual and as such there is no common and shared vocabulary with which to discuss, describe and explain our world. the result is that we make up words or use existing words in new ways. so words such as energy, god, spirit, consciousness, higher self etc, are all attempts to find appropriate terminology. we also often rely on religion to provide us with words, context and meaning that we cannot find in our ecveryday lifes. (i have to state that i am speaking from my own experience and that may differ widely form the spiritual types i arrogantly began this paragraph speaking for.)

Well-said, SWM. You have expressed it very clearly. That is the same sentiment I have...it is each individual 's unique journey.

[voodoo scientist]

What you said (inadequancy of language) made sense until two people agreed completely with what you said. Since communication just happened, there's a common vocabulary, which means this can be explained. Of course I already knew that, since I've previously observed spiritual people obviously communicating these concepts quite clearly - it's only the more precise approximation that's proving troublesome.

[S. Earl Martin]

Which would you rather have? A few years of suffering here on earth. Or infinity in a perfect Heaven? HMMMM! 

[SWM]

"That which can be expressed in words is
not the eternal; the name which can
be uttered is not the eternal name. Without a
name, it is the Beginning of Heaven and Earth ;
with a name, it is the Mother of all things. Only
one who is ever free from desire can apprehend
its spiritual essence ; he who is ever a slave to
desire can see no more than its outer fringe.

These two things, the spiritual and the material,
though we call them by different names, in
their origin are one and the same. This same-
ness is a mystery, — the mystery of mysteries.
It is the gate of all wonders."

[S. Earl Martin]

Okay, where did that come from? It captures the essence of our situation pretty accurately.
Only by putting off the self can we truly find the self.