Some thoughts on society

[Enigma]

Why did mankind's ancestors gather together and form society?  Because a society is an advantage that means survival for a greater number of people.  An adaptation if you will.  As I've stated before humans are an advanced and unique animal who are subject to the same principles and forces that other animals are.  Many species live in communities to further chances of survival.  Other animals have adapted to use their environment to their advantage.  For example, beavers have learned to chop down trees and use them.  Humans have combined these adaptations to form society.  

But in this day and age, things have changed.  We have grown too big too fast.  We have realized that the effects of our society can impact the environment in unprecedented ways.  We are overpopulated.  If we continue as we have, nature will bite back.  She has defense mechanisms in order to reduce species like us who have gotten out of control.  She will wipe herself, and then nature will take its course.  Hell, there might even be humans again in a couple of million years.  

But back to my point.  We formed society because it gave an advantage.  This is not quite true today.  For many different groups across the world, society bestows upon them a massive disadvantage,  whether it be race, gender, creed, class, sexuality, etc.  Society and humanity itself is out of wack with our natural balance.  This is causing all the hatred, conflict, war, and other ills in this day and age.  This massive corporate culture, the bastard child of capitalism, has rotted the world.  Maybe this economic meltdown is a good thing.  Wake us up to the fact that we can no longer live so out of touch with reality.

[anaklio]

An easy measure of "fitness" or evolutionary advantage is the ability to reproduce. Being in a society continues to confer a large advantage on that measure. If you have children and are unable to care for them, there are often others who will step in.

But I understand your point as getting someone to care for unwanted  children is increasingly hard in places like China and India.

[liza123]

Maybe the economic meltdown is a good thing as you put it. Or maybe it is not. There is an increase of crimes due to lack of money, etc. (even for paltry sums!). In order to be in touch with reality as you put it, there is the first the step : reflection of things. Who is going to spend time reflecting? How many of us?

[sure]

dear enigma, thank you ! I'm happy that society isn't nessecary anymore.
I'm simply hating my folks. (whether related or not): I hate my country. To the bone!

[psy_guy]

You should look at the date, sure, I noticed, that you bring up very many old topics of half a year, year, year and a half old... That's just not cool. Old topics should stay as old topics in my opinion.

[sure]

o.k.

[Enigma]

this entire forum has always had a serious amount of necroposting.

[NataEames]

Haha necroposting! Haven't heard that before. Is that an actual term or did you just make that up? Either way, it sounds cool!

[xiaoyu]

This is an inevitable social development, perhaps we start in the wrong direction....

[jbarefield74]

What a very deep thoughts you have back there. why not just chill out and relax. :-)

[S. Earl Martin]

Chill out and relax? That is like telling someone when they are being raped to just lay back and enjoy it. Just like yeast we are using up our enviornment. The population is growing at an alarming rate. All the resources are being depleted. Just as civilizations in the past fell because they used up their resources. We are doing the same on a global scale. Just take nuclear fuel. Most power plants are running out of space to store it. Many have decaying fuel that is to unstable to move. Fukijima is just the start. Never mind all the 2012 stuff. This planet is in trouble and mankind is responsible. People like myself have tried to warn the greedy, self-oriented, never mind the enviornment we need jobs morons. That this would happen. And now it is to late. Unless major social changes occur very soon? We are all doomed. Is there a Heaven? I really hope so. Cause this planet has run it's course. 

[SWM]

some people would like us to believe that the earth is over populated and that the earths resources are being consumed in a catastrophic way. this is a myth perpetuated by certain right wing groups. the resources that we have on the earth are adequate for the current population and it's expected growth. over consumption of uneccassary resources is a different matter. however we could consume all unnecessary resources and still have the essential resources needed for our survival.

[S. Earl Martin]

Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. I realize that especially with the changes in your life it is difficult to think of the world not being a better place. Where the next generation is better off than the last, but that is not usually the case. If you have studied history? Anytime we have had the conditions we are currently experiencing it was a precurser to a major disaster. Wheather it was war or disease or social upheaval. The problems this planet is experiencing are no myth. A big part of the problem is the people who just pretend they aren't happening. These are the people who are selling our childrens future. Who think they will either be dead or hidden in bunkers before they happen.

 (still have the essential resources needed for our survival.)
Key here is "essential resources". I am a survivalist and I could survive almost any situation. As far as resources goes? Just take for example rare earth metals. China has a monopoly on them and is rigging the prices. It is causeing a lot of termoil in the world economy. That is just one example. If you look you will see that all the major powers are drawing up treaties and joining sides. Just as before WW1 and WW2. Or many of the European conflicts from the past. All it ever takes is one small incidence to get out of hand to start a war. Oil is getting harder and harder to extract. The belief we have enough oil for centuries is flawed. It doesn't take into account that the demand is increasing and that the oil reserves are in areas that are increasingly more difficult to access. The BP disaster is an example. As we move deeper and deeper trying to drill it becomes more likely mistakes will happen. As countries with appalling enviornmental records start trying to drill we will see more and more problems. As far as Fukijima goes? I watch the Asian news. The TEPCO Co. is out of money and is about to declare bankruptcy. They want the Japenese government to take over paying for the problem. Also no technology exists to remove the nuclear fuel in the reactors. It is in such an unstable state that even trying to move it could make the problem much worse. On the other hand it can't be maintained in it present state indiffently. So it is a damned if we do and damned if we don't situation. I could go on, but I think that is enough for now. My point is this. The countries of the world could come together and fix the problems that are threatening our future. However I really doubt they will. More likely they will kill each other fighting over the last scrap of food. Peace and prosperity.

[SWM]

hey earl

your focusing on a certain culture which is destroying itself. it wont destroy the planet.

I think you missed my point, my point was that some people use population growth to blame as the cause of the worlds problems. this is the myth. population growth is not the problem. the problem is what we consume and how much we consume.

as your said you are survivalist. the human race is a survivalist species. you live in a biodynamic environment. the planet is a biodynamic environment. we dont need oil, plastic, gold, copper or dollar bill centric economies, for the survival of the planet and it inhabitants,
we do need water, plants, animals and earth centric economies.

dont let them fool you into believing the earth does not have  the resources we need to survive and thrive. our current consumer habits are not helping our survival they are destroying it. this is not about how many of us there are it about what we do while we are here and what we leave behind when we're gone.

[voodoo scientist]

I wonder why it is that intellectuals can forget that power is power with such seeming easy.

[S. Earl Martin]

SWM: I understand what you are saying. I also see the difference in our definition's. Weather human's will continue if or when the next big disaster occurs? They have survived a great deal already, but just like the dinosours we could reach our limits. I plan on giving it a pretty good shot at surviving. I figure just like in Katrina and some other situations where society broke down most people should run out of food and ammunition in about 1-2 weeks. Then they will turn on each other. With what ever they can find. My compound will be hard to enter and I have spent years making it ready. So unless I am hit by high explosives or a nuclear blast? I should be okay. I also have stocked up on items people from our society would give just about anything to get. So if it comes down to bartering I have that covered. I hope and pray that mankind can pull their head out of there ass and find a way to work together. Stop all this petty bickering about things that are not that important anyway. I have worked most of my life trying to save this world and the enviornment in general. I used to be an optimist. I thought we would someday realize our mistakes and work together. Now after watching humans make the same mistakes over and over and being lied to by politicians over and over. I am a pessimist. So if the rest of the world want's to poison themselves to death so they can have all their modern devices okay. I will just stand on the sidelines and watch it happen. I am to old and don't have the energy to fight the fight anymore. I know how to survive and I plan on after the dust settles if I am still here. To help people rebuild society. I have a biology background and understand how most machines work. I also know how 1800's technology works. This would be invaluble in a world reconstruction. It is still possible that we could fix it. I still have hope we will. Peace and good things be yours. Earl 

[voodoo scientist]

Yeah, you're right, it'll probably be like Katrina where everyone turned on each other. Or, you know, maybe it'll be like Fukushima, where everyone didn't turn on each other and instead helped each other out. Wait -- I just had a breakthrough idea. Maybe the exact effect will differ from area to area, so "it" won't really be "like" either option. Maybe the effect won't happen all at once, so "it' won't really be like those brief, high-impact events at all. Maybe it's not really meaningful to speak of "it," or the effect "it" will have on "society."

Did you ever consider the fact that bickering is an adaptive response to some problems? That your neurons bicker all the time? Did you consider the fact that the exact effect of these things will not be symmetrical or linear, but will differ widely from area to area? Or that the same holds for the responses people will make? You say you have a background in biology, and yet the best response you can come up with to a proposed extinction event is to try to isolate yourself from it - nevermind that you think you can do so by regressing to technology adapted for a climate even further removed from the future's than is today's! Either you have a background in the biology equivalent of homeopathic medicine, or you're looking at the problem from an inherently unproductive angle.

In the long game of evolution, the planet will be fine. Humanity will be fine. The only thing that's at risk are our individual genetic lineages, and the sooner you realize that and stop using these grossly oversimplified mental models for conceptualizing the problems, the sooner you will be able to produce meaningful solutions and preparations for the problems you've identified. Sea levels are sea levels, temperature is temperature, individuals are individuals, genes are genes. These are dimensions one can work along and make decisions from - the sea level in my area will flood my home, so I have to lower them. The temperature in an area is hurting my crops/food source, so I must lower it. Individuals are threatening to destroy my genes with bombs, so I must stop them.

If you want to change the world you can never forget that power is power. Once you forget that basic fact, it's only a matter of time before all hope is lost.

[S. Earl Martin]

Hey Voo Doo I always enjoy discussing things with you. You make it so interesting. I fully understand that different people's and cultures will react in different ways. Look at how the Japanese reacted to the sunami and then compare the floods in Thailand. Similar peoples and cultures much different reaction. I was speaking in generalities. More so how I figure the people in my general vicinity will react.

As far as trying to solve the major problems facing the world? I have spent most of my life. Trying to educate people. Protesting, writing letters, circulating petitions, etc. Most of it I now realize was a waste of time. People don't care what happens. They just want to sit on their ass and watch TV. They have an unrealistic view that they can deal with the problems when they get here.

As far as 18th century technology look at history. Anytime any great civilization fell. Technology made a great leap backward. If our power plants quite working that would be the state we would have to deal with until we could repair them. We very well could be an agricultural society again.

"the sea level in my area will flood my home, so I have to lower them. The temperature in an area is hurting my crops/food source, so I must lower it. Individuals are threatening to destroy my genes with bombs, so I must stop them."

How do you propose to do these things? In the 60's we proposed that a bill be passed making it manditory that all products sold be 100% reusable or recyclable. That would have stopped the need for landfills and the loss of natural resources. No one liked that one. Even the enviornmental business people. We thought that the chemical industry would like it because their products already could be melted down and reused. No they came up with the biodegradable product to protect the enviornment. It was a crock. If the product breaks down then they can sell more products. Planned obsolescence. It had nothing to do with the enviornment. It is the same as the green movement today. It is a feel good movement and is really about making money. "I have an electric car. I am saving the enviornment?" Bull. The electricity is still generated by coal or petroleum.

Like I said. We still could make the changes. We would have to change how the whole world thinks about our interaction with the planet and each other. I am now a pessimist though. I am tired of trying to teach people who aren't interested in learning. Trying to contact politicians who say " Oh yes I agree something needs to be done" Then after they are re-elected they cave in to special interests. And lower the enviornmental standards to "save jobs". If you think your generation will have better luck than mine? Good luck! I hope you do. But watch out for the liar's and the traitors. If they can't decieve you? They will try and buy you off. If that doesn't work they look for something to arrest you. Personally I think the next big disaster is unaviodable. That it is going to be bigger than anything in history and it is to late to stop it? The snowball is rolling down hill and we are along for the ride. Peace.   

[voodoo scientist]

Hey Voo Doo I always enjoy discussing things with you. You make it so interesting. I fully understand that different people's and cultures will react in different ways. Look at how the Japanese reacted to the sunami and then compare the floods in Thailand. Similar peoples and cultures much different reaction. I was speaking in generalities. More so how I figure the people in my general vicinity will react.

As far as trying to solve the major problems facing the world? I have spent most of my life. Trying to educate people. Protesting, writing letters, circulating petitions, etc. Most of it I now realize was a waste of time. People don't care what happens. They just want to sit on their ass and watch TV. They have an unrealistic view that they can deal with the problems when they get here.

As far as 18th century technology look at history. Anytime any great civilization fell. Technology made a great leap backward. If our power plants quite working that would be the state we would have to deal with until we could repair them. We very well could be an agricultural society again.

"the sea level in my area will flood my home, so I have to lower them. The temperature in an area is hurting my crops/food source, so I must lower it. Individuals are threatening to destroy my genes with bombs, so I must stop them."

How do you propose to do these things? In the 60's we proposed that a bill be passed making it manditory that all products sold be 100% reusable or recyclable. That would have stopped the need for landfills and the loss of natural resources. No one liked that one. Even the enviornmental business people. We thought that the chemical industry would like it because their products already could be melted down and reused. No they came up with the biodegradable product to protect the enviornment. It was a crock. If the product breaks down then they can sell more products. Planned obsolescence. It had nothing to do with the enviornment. It is the same as the green movement today. It is a feel good movement and is really about making money. "I have an electric car. I am saving the enviornment?" Bull. The electricity is still generated by coal or petroleum.

Like I said. We still could make the changes. We would have to change how the whole world thinks about our interaction with the planet and each other. I am now a pessimist though. I am tired of trying to teach people who aren't interested in learning. Trying to contact politicians who say " Oh yes I agree something needs to be done" Then after they are re-elected they cave in to special interests. And lower the enviornmental standards to "save jobs". If you think your generation will have better luck than mine? Good luck! I hope you do. But watch out for the liar's and the traitors. If they can't decieve you? They will try and buy you off. If that doesn't work they look for something to arrest you. Personally I think the next big disaster is unaviodable. That it is going to be bigger than anything in history and it is to late to stop it? The snowball is rolling down hill and we are along for the ride. Peace.   

Look at how easily you minimized the fundamental mistake you made as though it doesn't even matter. "I was speaking in generalities." That's what you don't understand: you weren't speaking in generalities, you were thinking in generalities.

"Trying to educate people." - Which people? What were you educating them about? Why were you educating them about that instead of any number of other things you could've decided to educate them about? How were you educating them?

"They have an unrealistic view." - What's a realistic view of the world? How did you determine that this view is realistic and that others are less realistic? Where is the cutoff between realistic and unrealistic? Would you say that Newtonian physics are now unrealistic?

"look at history. Anytime any great civilization fell. Technology made a great leap backward." - What part of history? Would you say that technology took a great leap backwards when the Native American civilization collapsed? When the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed? What constitutes a "great" civilization? How did you order "technology" such that it becomes meaningful for it to move "backward"? Does it regress linearly?

I'm not going to deconstruct the rest of your post in this way because the sheer pretension makes me constipated. Noone in the 60's liked the idea of 100% recycling because it's a stupid generalization that only follows from your simplified mental models of the problems. There's nothing "crock" about biodegradable products, whatever that's supposed to mean. Biodegradability was an immediately workable and implementable solution that has had a bigger net effect on the environment than your 100% recycling idea ever managed to.

"My generation" is another generalization. Who is my generation? What year were the first of my generation born? I don't know if "my generation" will have better luck than "your generation" because it's not a meaningful concept when engaging in problem solving.

Make no mistake, I approve highly of your new-found pessimism. It is optimism that is at the root of all these generalizations - there's no reason to be exact if you fundamentally believe things will work out in the great scheme of things. Pessimism is the one thing that will never let you down: the null point is permanently fixed at the worst case scenario. Once you let go of these childlike beliefs that problems somehow solve themselves through the magic of awareness or collective action or prayer, the healing can begin: passion replaced with determination, indignation replaced with calculation, effort replaced with strategy.

The trick to winning is to set up the game so that you can't lose. You take Jesus as your ideal man of power; I take Lloyd Blankfein - metaphorically speaking.

[S. Earl Martin]

Great leap backward? The dark ages. Or the Mayan and Aztec civilizations. A great number of other examples can be found.

Speaking in generalities? I made no mistake. It would be impossible to predict how any given peoples would react. Or any individual for that matter. So the only way of discussing possible outcomes would be in generalities.

As far as trying to educate people I have done that in a number of ways. Thru direct interaction. Thru the writing of articles. As I stated thru demonstrations. Many more.

As far as the 60's recycleing being stupid that is an insult as well as being a very ignorant statement. 100% renewable resource is now a concept being reintroduced and many people think it is a new concept. As more and more resources are being depleted. It is becoming necessary in many instances. It is the heart of many of the latest recycling programs today.
Again with "my generation" is a general statement. Because it is impossible to actually draw a line between generations. So it has to be refered to in a general way.

As far as an unrealistic view. If people believe that they can do whatever they want as an individual or a people with no negative consequences? That is unrealistic. That is how many people are approaching the problems in the world today. Don't worry it will all work out. They either think God or science will step in and solve everything.

As far as biodegradability being some how superiour? Or some kind of solution? You obviously are not aware of what was really transpiring. Before this time. ( yes that is a generality, but it would be impossible to set an exact date.) Quality products that lasted or could be reused was the norm. The problem was industry wanted to sell more and more. So as I stated planned obsolescence became the standard. Biodegrabability was just part of this plan. It was not about the enviornmet at all.


Voo Doo: One of your main technics is to turn the discussion and make it about your opponent personally. Rather than focusing on the problem or the point of the discussion. I do see that you refocused on the problem at the end and that is good.

Make no mistake, I approve highly of your new-found pessimism. It is optimism that is at the root of all these generalizations - there's no reason to be exact if you fundamentally believe things will work out in the great scheme of things. Pessimism is the one thing that will never let you down: the null point is permanently fixed at the worst case scenario. Once you let go of these childlike beliefs that problems somehow solve themselves through the magic of awareness or collective action or prayer, the healing can begin: passion replaced with determination, indignation replaced with calculation, effort replaced with strategy.
I agree with most of this statement. However I have no child like delusions about things working out. So I will take it by "You"? You mean people in general? See how easy it is to do that.

As far as Jesus being my "ideal man". That is only partially true. I have a number of different people I admire. They are from a great number of backgrounds. I strive to find wisdom wherever it can be found.

So now you critizied me, but offered no real tangable solutions on your own. Just generalities. You are requiring me to be specific so what would be your ideas for solutions. 

[voodoo scientist]

Great leap backward? The dark ages. Or the Mayan and Aztec civilizations. A great number of other examples can be found.

Speaking in generalities? I made no mistake. It would be impossible to predict how any given peoples would react. Or any individual for that matter. So the only way of discussing possible outcomes would be in generalities.

No, no, no. You were so close and then you threw it away like so much garbage. This is the correct answer: It is impossible to predict how any given peoples would react, so don't waste your time trying.

As far as trying to educate people I have done that in a number of ways. Thru direct interaction. Thru the writing of articles. As I stated thru demonstrations. Many more.

As far as the 60's recycleing being stupid that is an insult as well as being a very ignorant statement. 100% renewable resource is now a concept being reintroduced and many people think it is a new concept. As more and more resources are being depleted. It is becoming necessary in many instances. It is the heart of many of the latest recycling programs today.
Again with "my generation" is a general statement. Because it is impossible to actually draw a line between generations. So it has to be refered to in a general way.

Again, you grasp the facts, but you shoehorn them into your preconceived conclusions. Here's the correct answer: It is impossible to draw a line between generations for the purpose of this, so don't waste your time trying.

As far as an unrealistic view. If people believe that they can do whatever they want as an individual or a people with no negative consequences? That is unrealistic. That is how many people are approaching the problems in the world today. Don't worry it will all work out. They either think God or science will step in and solve everything.

If you're so smart and they're so dumb, why didn't you fix the problems despite all your trying? Why don't you hold yourself accountable for failing to achieve your goals instead of whining about how everyone else doesn't live up to your standards?

As far as biodegradability being some how superiour? Or some kind of solution? You obviously are not aware of what was really transpiring. Before this time. ( yes that is a generality, but it would be impossible to set an exact date.) Quality products that lasted or could be reused was the norm. The problem was industry wanted to sell more and more. So as I stated planned obsolescence became the standard. Biodegrabability was just part of this plan. It was not about the enviornmet at all.

Here's the effect size of your 100% recycling idea: zero.
Here's the effect size of biodegradable materials: more than zero.

Voo Doo: One of your main technics is to turn the discussion and make it about your opponent personally. Rather than focusing on the problem or the point of the discussion. I do see that you refocused on the problem at the end and that is good.

Everything is personal and specific and loaded. The moment you take the personal out is the moment your ideas lose all potency with other persons - don't you see the paradox in trying to interact with other persons in an impersonal manner? Again, don't waste your time trying.

I agree with most of this statement. However I have no child like delusions about things working out. So I will take it by "You"? You mean people in general? See how easy it is to do that.

No, I meant you personally (pro tip: when deconstructing things, you have to actually read what the other party wrote). If you've turned from optimist to pessimist, then I suppose you have indeed let go of these childlike beliefs. Good for you!

As far as Jesus being my "ideal man". That is only partially true. I have a number of different people I admire. They are from a great number of backgrounds. I strive to find wisdom wherever it can be found.

So now you critizied me, but offered no real tangable solutions on your own. Just generalities. You are requiring me to be specific so what would be your ideas for solutions.

I've criticized you for wasting valuable thinking time trying to accommodate generalities that don't exist in phenomenological reality into your perspective, and I claim that such an error of perspective leads to a predictable failure to compute satisfying solutions for problems within the perspective due to computational complexity. It's like getting stuck on trying to draw a circle because you insist on computing pi to its final decimal first.

[S. Earl Martin]

Ha Ha Ha. Just because we can't define something to your standards we shouldn't "waste time trying?" That's redicules. In generalities we find hypothesizing. This leads to discovery. Not everything is factual. Somethings can only be estimated. There fore the only way of refering to them is in general. If you illiminate generelization you limit your avalible information. Still waiting for your solutions?

"If you're so smart and they're so dumb, why didn't you fix the problems despite all your trying? Why don't you hold yourself accountable for failing to achieve your goals instead of whining about how everyone else doesn't live up to your standards?"

We have been over this before. I did not imply or state I was smarter or superiour in anyway. Also I am not whining. I believe that would be you. You have a habit of taking things I say and adding to them. Or taking them out of context. As I stated before this is a sign of a weak argument.

Here's the effect size of your 100% recycling idea: zero.
Here's the effect size of biodegradable materials: more than zero.

The above is a generalization. And is your opinion.

Everything is personal and specific and loaded. The moment you take the personal out is the moment your ideas lose all potency with other persons - don't you see the paradox in trying to interact with other persons in an impersonal manner? Again, don't waste your time trying.

"Everything" is a generalization. Sticking with the preseived problem is hardly a waste of time. Making things into a personel attack is counter productive and is really a waste of time. Your attempts to manipulate me and the discussion by claiming certain things you don't want to deal with are a waste of time is possibly a transparant attempt to hid your ignorance.

Your statement that I should take responsibility for not influencing people to change their behavior is also in error. At no time did I blame anyone. I do take resposibility. Had you asked I would have told you so, but instead you make the assumption I did not. Try to focus on the problem and possible solutions. I mean if you are so much smarter than me. I am interested in how all of your attempts have been so much more successful than mine. Please tell me oh wise one. What method you would use to make people aware of how to achieve world peace. Or economic balance. If recycleing is a waste of effort? Enlighten me to how we can solve the world's problems. Oh wait we shouldn't even try? 

[S. Earl Martin]

I also was thinking about your asseration that I/we didn't achieve my/our goals. That is also not true. Your confusing goals and intent.
Goals are things in your control and are usually only influenced by you personally. Unless you have employees or team mates etc.
Intent can be personal, but usually involves other people and is out of your direct control.

Example: Myself and some other liked minded people decided to have a rally about a certain topic. The actual topic doesn't matter. We set our goal as this.
1 Decide where the rally would be and what it would be about.

2 Raise funds to have flyers printed to make people aware of the rally.

3 Write/give speeches to state our opinions and ideas.

4 Circulate petitions and recruit more members.

We accomplished all of these goals. Our intent was to change peoples consciousness and opinions about the subject at hand. We can only try and control that. The amount of people influenced and the extent of the influence can not be measured. So it could not be a realistic goal. Now the over all effect we had in the long run is apparent. It did not have the desired effect. At least we tried. Many of my friends have died. Or are in the same boat I am. So we fought the fight to try and save the planet from destruction. Now it is future generations time to pick up the mantle and continue the cause. The occupy movement is a start. All though I see they are not using the publicity and attention to the best advantage. This is due to a lack of organization and not having people who are perceived as leaders. We had Abby Hoffman, Timothy Leary, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, etc. The movement is being manipulated by the people who they are protesting against. These people have been playing this game a long time. If you stick your neck out without knowing what you are up against? They will cut off your head metaphorically speaking.

Peace and fight the power.