The Existence of God

[SWM]

Do you believe god exists?
why do you believe god does/doesnt exist?

[corwin137]

1.  Yup.  But I refer to it (?) as 'god', small 'g' in quotes, or he/she/them/it as I misunderstand it.

2.  "Does one light a torch to see the sun?"

That's oversimplifying of course.  Am thinking belief/non-belief is less and less relevant over time.

[SWM]

1.  Yup.  But I refer to it (?) as 'god', small 'g' in quotes, or he/she/them/it as I misunderstand it.

poeple have started war over the word used to describe the existence.
words too often can be inadequate. with subjects such as this, i feel that it is easier for me to just be content with my own knowledge and not try to communicate my knowedge or experiences so as to avoid confusion.

2.  "Does one light a torch to see the sun?"

That's oversimplifying of course.  Am thinking belief/non-belief is less and less relevant over time.

i understand. knowledge and expereince is a blinding light in shadowy room of faith and belief.

[cognitive]

Yes , I believe that God does exist , whatever his name may be, and that because I have met him.
Also, I believe that while living on this Earth His name was Jesus Christ .

[corwin137]

Other than the obvious curiosity, anything in particular prompt this question?

[SWM]

yes, however if i tell you my motivation for asking the question the purpose of the topic would never come to fruition.

[corwin137]

Hrm.  Well, would take it further, but anything else I might have to say in more detail beyond what I noted would be retina-scarring.  So unless some other folk post some stuff...

[SWM]

i am tempted to spill the beans, as the topic is not exactly hot, i am not really going to derail this thread by sharing my reason for opening this topic.

i find it fascinating how a lot of people (the majority) fall into either of the two camps in the black and white world of religious belief. god exists. god does not exist. this majority fervently believe one or the other without eny evidence or personal experiences that justify such a fervent belief. from this position in their black and white world they passionately defend their system of belief and fiercely attack other belief systems which pose a threat to their own system.

interactions between these two warring factions reveals a lot about the personalities of the individual.

so i confess this thread was prompted by my desire for religious vouyerism.

actually my fascination is with people and how they behave, think, feel and communicate.

it only really gets me into trouble with my girlfriend every time we are around other people she has to put up with me, constantly observing and watching people and paying her no attention at all.

[cognitive]

speaking about God ...i have found this poem on the net , it seems that the author is unknown ,it made me smile when i read, then realized it can be used in therapy for people who always see others faults , never their own.

 I was shocked, confused, bewildered
as I entered Heaven's door,
Not by the beauty of it all,
by the lights or its decor.
 
But it was the folks in Heaven
who made me sputter and gasp--
the thieves, the liars, the sinners,
the alcoholics, the trash.
 
There stood the kid from seventh grade
who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor
who never said anything nice.
 
Herb, who I always thought
was rotting away in hell,
was sitting pretty on cloud nine,
looking incredibly well.
 
I nudged Jesus, "What's the deal?
I would love to hear Your take.
How'd all these sinners get up here?
God must've made a mistake.
 
And why's everyone so quiet,
so somber? Give me a clue."
"Hush, child," said He "They're all in shock.
No one thought they'd see you."
 
Judge NOT.



 

[Shell]

I know God exists and I believe that Jesus was sent to save us from our sins.  Since becoming saved, I've never felt so loved, challenged, and purposeful in my life.

Cognitive, I love that poem you posted.  Very true!

[Agni]

I am sure that God egsist because He gives me evidence of it everyday:)). I love reading books and articles about differrent religions because I find pleasure in finding similarities  between them. But  I have only a little time to do it, sometimes:(((((. I believe ONE GOD- MANY RELIGIONS-MANY NAMES OF GOD.

[corwin137]

"All these different expressions, all these faces of God, are necessary to flesh out the human soul.  An Indian teacher of mine once said, 'My soul is a mosque for Muslims, a temple for Hindus, an altar for Zoroastrians, and grazing pastures for gazelles'".
-  Anon

[SWM]

i realise that this is just my belief as i dont have any evidence to support it. but i believe that the variety of relgions we have today are recorded experiences of men and women who where experiencing states of consciousness and spiritual realities. the recorded these experiences to share with other people and they have become religions. except perhaps those religions which have become some what dogmatically described as religions revealed by god.

[hamfarm]

This is a very famous and common topic. In fact me and a couple of my friends had discussed this very topic, and went into a very long discussion. I don't have a very strong belief in any religion, but I do believe in god. Now some of you are probably like thats dumb u cant do that. Well this is how i see it. My family is mostly Christian, and so is most of the world. I was raised somewhat in church. But I tell you, the only reason I have any belief at all towards a god is because that is what i was raised on and what the world says is right.

               I have many doubts, or very little faith, because I look for proof and honestly science has given more proof than any bible has. So now I'm going to turn to science and psychology. When me and my friends had this discussion, we began talking about one of the many things all human beings have in common. Fear. We all fear something whether its insects or waking up in your classroom naked.

            Human beings all ways look for comfort or security in what ever they can when afraid its natural. And whether you admit it or not, every body has some sort of fear of death. Whether its death its self, or the idea of how you might die. My point here is man kind was or is afraid of the fact that death is the end of your life, nobody likes the idea that when you die thats it nothing else just darkness. So hundred, thousands, or millions of years ago, when men became intelligent enough to realize that death meant no more, you were gone forever. They came up with a comfort something that would give them a chance to have faith or hope to see their lost loved ones again. Whether it's reincarnation, gods, life after death. It's all the same. 

     Thank You for taking your time out to read this.

[Schizo]

I have for a very long time been agnostic; I feel agnosticism is an accurate stance to take amid the confusion and uncertainty of what we do not yet know.  Traditional Gods I do not believe in; religion I see as psychosocial exaggeration and reinforcement that has cultured itself throughout a conscious time span. 

I do feel that agnosticism allows for governing intelligent systems to be present in the Cosmos, in other words aliens that have become advanced; so much so, there is an enforcement of dominance.

I actually have for some time now declared war on God/Gods...  whether it be metaphorical or real.  I would rather die than see our world corrupted by a form of imprisonment. With religion in our presence we suffocate, with it we are not as free as could be, and with it's actions there is resistance to social integrity. 

I imagine leading a great silent war to vanquish God's presence; who would not want to face the universe, for the first time, as an intelligent system which had gone through so much, had faced their fears of mortality and come out on top, and braved the unknown... who would not want to be free...  we would be a single planet placed in an almost endless ocean of space that had survived... we would have become Humans........    = )           

[RobinVeloz]

I myself want myself not to believe but I cant stop myself,I tell my peers "I'm an atheist" but still find myself impulsively praying at difficult times.I believe its because of my religious family that I seem to get this unconscious  acceptance to this idea of a god.And no I don't mean genetically but through all the prayers they made me sit through,the classes the Sundays.In time all of it seemed preposterous to me...

[Schizo]

I myself want myself not to believe but I cant stop myself,I tell my peers "I'm an atheist" but still find myself impulsively praying at difficult times.I believe its because of my religious family that I seem to get this unconscious  acceptance to this idea of a god.And no I don't mean genetically but through all the prayers they made me sit through,the classes the Sundays.In time all of it seemed preposterous to me...

It is tricky, a delicate line which is walked, when the world around you is still caught up in it all...  perhaps no human at this point is, in totality, capable of negating this presence from their minds' unconscious or conscious... and perhaps it takes more than faith to fight against it...  I think it takes a fevered passion which desires to be free...  something in you which says I will do it on my own, that this future is ours, and that I would fight to see it that way.     

[cognitive]

hi, schizo , what are you referring to when saying "I will do it on my own " ...do what?

[Schizo]

Facing the universe as the insignificant, more importantly doing so without a crutch such as religion or Gods....

[cognitive]

facing the universe ? 
or did you mean facing everyday living challenges ?

[Schizo]

perhaps both...

[cognitive]

schizo , you may think you're facing everyday challenges without God ,but that does not mean that God says the same thing .In the end you might me surprise to find out that actually He was besides you all the time .

[Schizo]

I, a man
Will stand till my dying breath
Against God

This breath may come far to quick
For I never had a chance to see the sky
With unyielding eyes

I, a person
Will forever fight
Against that which drowns

Drowning a hope
Seen only by minds which knew
Of a tomorrow tinted in blue

I, a human
Will be free
From restraints that consume

Evolving in thought
So that I may know this tomorrow
Which we would call home

[Schizo]

Just as those who believe in God are passionate about their beliefs, so it is with me.



Truthfully though... think on this, the world is a big game... lets say between theists and non-theists.  Many religious institutions preach to the world, saying that I or you must be saved, well non-theists are gaining ground, and I have no problems with them doing the same.


Like I have said before,  society would most likely function more fluidly if religion was not present. 



And no one will stop, it is the war of belief, the evolution of a society.  YAY!!!   

[SWM]

I, a man
Will stand till my dying breath
Against God

This breath may come far to quick
For I never had a chance to see the sky
With unyielding eyes

I, a person
Will forever fight
Against that which drowns

Drowning a hope
Seen only by minds which knew
Of a tomorrow tinted in blue

I, a human
Will be free
From restraints that consume

Evolving in thought
So that I may know this tomorrow
Which we would call home

this is a beautifully versed expression of your viewpoint.

some things i that strike me:


you speak of a struggle that has had the beauty of the world taken away.

you are trapped in this struggle, you hope of a future that will be better than today.

you are not able to find a sense of freedom in your life at the present.

you stand against god.

you do not believe in god and must have no experience of god. (if you have experience of god you would believe) you stand against something that you have no belief in and no experience of. if i have no experience of something or no belief of something and after seeking the truth of this thing i still find it an empty thing then i will not waste any further time with it. what reason do you stand against against god?

[Shell]

society would most likely function more fluidly if religion was not present.

Anything can function with or without God.  But can it be beautiful?  Can it be peaceful and just?  I believe the world would be perfect without Satan and his evil doings and I highly doubt it would be greater without God.

Religion is one thing, a relationship with God is another.  I am a Christian and I do not place tradition above God nor above my family and lifestyle.  Believing in God and trusting in Him helps me become a better person who is humble and caring.  My faith allows me to see past the darkness of this world and keep my eyes on a light so beautiful that I only ask how I can be better in all of this.  It is a selfless life, one that is giving and not centered on me and my worldly desires or physical needs.  It is a life that is purposeful and focused on helping others. 

I love my choice to become a Christian.  I've lived too many years focused on me and my troubles and anger, hate, greed, sex.  I am a free woman now, with my life in God's hands.  I am not naive, believing I am perfect now that I am a Christian.  If anything, I've faced more challenges on a much deeper level since giving my life to Christ.  But I love knowing that my reward will be sweeter in eternity.

I haven't been on in a bit and I've just fought a small battle of depression.  So I'm feeling a bit talkative right now.  That's my take on this topic.

[Schizo]

Stan- like you said, if you have not known a world, than how could you have seen or felt what it was like.  Similar to myself never knowing God, I imagine a world without; where we are human and only that.  Think of how close society could possibly become in the absence of God, we would find comfort in ours' not God's.

It is true that I yearn for a free life, I am constricted...  it could be said I am suffocating on life; I am unable to maintain...


I do stand against both religion and God...  I would stand against God if God were real or not,  I would gladly be cast out of anything promised to me if I could pave my own way throughout our evolution... our progression.     



Cecile-  I believe it would be beautiful... so much more than anyone knows.  It starts off small, an inkling or two amid religious rule; then, like a seedling, growing till non-theists' beliefs reach into the depths of society.


One thing I will not do is knock anyone,  I understand a great deal about people... and I know from experience that people nor I want anything forced...  I appreciate people's wishes and would not do anything to harm that...  however I think that setting up institutions that promote non-theists perspectives  or reinforcing those institutions which exist is not inappropriate.


When it comes down to it, neither you or I could possibly deny that it is merely a belief in a flash of time.  I can not in totality say God does not exist, there is lacking evidence, but just as you have faith, I faithfully hope for a tomorrow void of that presence.     

 

 

[Schizo]

Ha!  I didn't really read the other posts....  only a few towards the end...   interesting, Stan had said something which I find intriguing...  most people either fall into a black or white category.


I would like say that people only fall into one of two major categories, One:  placing an entity/entities as a governing force for human life, or not...   I feel that all facets of omnipresent beings fall into the first category, whether you believe in Mother Nature, God, or anything in between.

Another point, has anyone ever noticed how we humanize God/Gods...   what about the Aliens and their cultures and beliefs...   what if an alien looked, just as an example, insect like...  and had a slightly variant mental state...  i.e. emotions and cognition.  If that alien being had a higher power it would take on their form... 

One could argue that God is merely known to a species not necessarily identified. 

I wonder if there is an intelligent alien species which develops without a higher powers presence in their evolution?



Back on topic... 



It is interesting to see these cultures of non-theists and theists interact,  because it is a sociological progression.

Amid a vast neural network... one which is as complex as the human mind, there lie but a few outputs...  despite its complexity we are only producing minute variances in thought.  I have always said complexity forms simplicity while simplicity forms complexity.  I think the best example of this, that I know of, is society.  For instance, in America...  you have generally one or two influences that a person can choose from in the governing system...  republican or democrat, and generally the beliefs of either party are similar within the parts of its whole.  It just goes to show that there are repetitions, these repetitions structure.       

Anywho.... 

[cognitive]

  Similar to myself never knowing God, I imagine a world without; where we are human and only that.  Think of how close society could possibly become in the absence of God, we would find comfort in ours' not God's.


 

Oh, Schizo ,but you don't have to use your imagination to realize how a society without God would function  just read about Gestapo and life in communism .
I was born and grew up in communism , do you want me to tell you how "human" communists were  ?

[Schizo]

Honestly....      communism may have been intended to be without religion, but you can not tell me that it followed that doctrine...  you can not just wipe religion from people or do it forcefully, which is not what I propose... do it over a long evolved period of time, transforming society...  many centuries perhaps... by setting up institutions and fighting it in schooling systems... etc.    It  is not like it isn't occurring...   I just want to catalyze the process.