Who believes in GOD?

[Karaten]

I've decided to just leave this thread alone.

[voodoo scientist]

So now we have two parties, on opposite extremes of the spectrum, who're both refusing further communication because they've stated their points as clearly as they can, but not clearly enough that meaningful discourse can take place around them.

Might I recommend stating your points clearly and separately without simultaneously trying to address every little thing you think is wrong (both of you)? You can't prove that you're right by proving everyone else is wrong, only by proving that you're right. However, the "proving process" can't start until at least two sides have been made clear enough.

[S. Earl Martin]

As was stated before I think on this thread, or maybe on another. Trying to describe God in words is impossible. The imperfect can not describe the perfect. The finite can not describe the infinite. This is why evidence of the existence of God is so fleeting. It is a personnel choice. The effect of God on an individual is only perceivable by the individual experiencing the effect in most cases.
As I stated before when I nearly died I had a vision of what I would call Heaven. It was beautiful and I could feel the Love and Joy that only can come from God. Now someone else can dismiss this as a hallucination or wishful thinking. Fine, that is their choice, but I know what I experienced. I didn't see God or recognize any of the people I saw there personally. Because I wasn't allowed to get that close. Although I did in another sense recognize all of them. In a more basic sense they all were like friends I hadn't seen in a long time.
Also prayer has been shown to work. Clinical trials have been conducted and certain people who have faith in prayer were prayed for. The rate of recovery was measured and the ones that were prayed for had a higher rate. Other studies have been done using de ionized water. People placed their hands on a glass container of water and prayed or felt certain emotions. This caused the water molecules to line up in a specific order. The order varied between individuals, but always lined up the same with the same individual. When they repeated the same thought or prayer. This demonstrated not only the power of prayer, but emotion as well. Although to be fair the same test was done with using music and had similar results.
We could keep this discussion going until the end of time. Belief in God is a personal choice. Those that do not believe can not experience the effect of God on their life because they refuse to see it even if it is there. However I can see the effect of God on my life and I know it is God. Of this I have no doubt and nothing can ever change that. Any attempt to change that belief only makes that belief stronger.
Peace!

[Karaten]

So now we have two parties, on opposite extremes of the spectrum, who're both refusing further communication because they've stated their points as clearly as they can, but not clearly enough that meaningful discourse can take place around them.

Might I recommend stating your points clearly and separately without simultaneously trying to address every little thing you think is wrong (both of you)? You can't prove that you're right by proving everyone else is wrong, only by proving that you're right. However, the "proving process" can't start until at least two sides have been made clear enough.

I certainly hope you didn't think anything would be proven here to either party.

[voodoo scientist]

I certainly hope you did, otherwise you have been wasting your own and everyone else's time - I stated my point with the intention of putting it up for review. I even included a measurable result: if I am wrong, God's theoretical existence would have a conceivable effect on our existence. Even S. Earl Martin has a methodologically better point than you do, because his point is based on experience and reasoning, whereas your point seems to be something like "God doesn't exist because I say so."

[pert -5]

The separation from God is not a matter of degree or distance, it is a matter of perspective.  But even this is only suggestive at best.

[pert -5]

If God is simply an experience or feeling, conceptually similar to anger or euphoria, then God obviously does exist. I assumed God was an external being or force, in this instance, and as such, for this being or force to have relevance and meaning to our existence as humans, it must have an effect on it. Effects on the world can be described, measured and predicted.

Our definitions of "God" may differ, so I shall share mine.  You use the word "external."  By my definition of "God," the word "external" precludes God.  The Christian exclaims "GOD!!"  The Atheist exclaims "SCIENCE!!"  But these are one in the same.  When one gets past dogmatic revelation they can see that all religious and spiritual and scientific matters are directed toward the same goal.  God is equivalent to the sum total of existence.  Anyone can argue semantics against that as they will;  such futility...  Call it psychology, call it science, call it what you will;  what is is what I call "God."

[Enigma]

If God is simply an experience or feeling, conceptually similar to anger or euphoria, then God obviously does exist. I assumed God was an external being or force, in this instance, and as such, for this being or force to have relevance and meaning to our existence as humans, it must have an effect on it. Effects on the world can be described, measured and predicted.

Our definitions of "God" may differ, so I shall share mine.  You use the word "external."  By my definition of "God," the word "external" precludes God.  The Christian exclaims "GOD!!"  The Atheist exclaims "SCIENCE!!"  But these are one in the same.  When one gets past dogmatic revelation they can see that all religious and spiritual and scientific matters are directed toward the same goal.  God is equivalent to the sum total of existence.  Anyone can argue semantics against that as they will;  such futility...  Call it psychology, call it science, call it what you will;  what is is what I call "God."

This is very true.

However it's a shame that people are suckered and manipulated in their search for god by bloated corporation of organized religion, so concerned with justifying, defending, and upholding their practices and dogma while forgetting to address the essential underlying existential questions present in the human condition.

[S. Earl Martin]

Enigma: I agree I have had so many different people try and convince me that they knew the "truth". That if I listened to them and did what "God" was telling them all my problems would just dissappear and wealth and health would fill my life. Blah Blah Blah. All they really wanted was my wallet and my car keys. Not just Christians. There are a lot of false religions out there.

That is why I look for the fruit. Do unto others and Love thy neighbor aren't just things we say when we try to look rightious. They are things we should live by on a daily basis. As the world becomes more and more self oriented. It is becomeing increaseingly difficult to do these things, but I still try. Peace! 

[docjp]

Do you believe in God? What makes you do so? Are you certain that there is one?

It is difficult, verging upon impossible to "believe" in God.  But, when it is time for one to awaken to an awareness of God, one discovers God as "Knowledge", which involves ones faculty of intuition.

If one is fortunate, one meets a God-Man, or Perfect Living Master, and this provides one a combined physical awareness and Spiritual [intuitive] Knowledge and this is not a belief.  It is an understanding of a Reality that cannot be conveyed intellectually.

[sunshine]

Hello...I am new here...just joined today!
 I wanted to come here for an entirely different reason...but I could not resist this subject as I was browsing on through the topics!

If I may...I would like to ask all of you people who are in question of a true GOD this:  Have you ever known anything to be created WITHOUT a creator?
My answer to this would be...NOTHING can be created without a creator...nothing at all!  SO if you look around and observe the natural world around you...how can anyone deny that an "unimaginable universal genius" has had his hand in it all!  Call it what you may...but I call it "The Universal Creator"!   

[SWM]

hi,
sunshine welcome to the forum.

I dont take sides on this argument. but just play devils advocate. the alternative to your argument is that nothing has ever been created. the universe was not created. in which case there is no need for a creator.

[sunshine]

Hi There,
Thanks for explaining your position.

If nothing has been created...can explain your existence or non existence?

[Stasy]

I BELIEVE IN GOD.
And you?
It`s difficult for me to undersdand people who don`t believe in GOD.Can you explain me?  What  principles do you have in life? What is the basis in your life?
Thank you.

[Demiurgic Truth]

I was raised not believing in God. For a long time I explored religion and found the concept fascinating, looking into different sorts of philosophy and the like. I became most comfortable with the idea that there was more than one God. I prayed but I wasn't exactly praying to anything. I now believe in a single God. It's a fairly recent development of mine, but I'm pretty comfortable in saying that I do believe in Him. I still don't know what to call myself religion-wise, but I've been looking into different religions to find one that matches my belief system.

[Stasy]

Now people have different religions.People who believe in God try to follow the rules,principles of their religion.You want" to find one that matches your belief system".I understand you.
  !There`s interesting fact that the main idea of the religions is common.(I think so).There are a lot of differences,but ....that are formalities.
(Maybe I am mistaken).

[Enigma]

I'm not ruling out the possibility of a higher power in the universe but the Judeo-Christian idea of a omnipotent peeping tom "God" is simply ridiculous.  I don't understand why people are so obsessed with needing a "meaning" in life, through religion or otherwise. We're here, we're alive, so make the best of it. What more meaning do you need?


To all of you who believe in "God", do you also believe in Thor, Zeus, Anubis, Quetzalcoatl, Vishnu, Xenu, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  When you understand why you dismiss these gods then you will understand why I dismiss yours. 

[voodoo scientist]

I've become curious as to how many religious people believe strongly in the belief system of their religion because they think it's a good belief system versus how many believe because they think there's a literal manifestation of their beliefs governing the universe.

As Stasy notes, there are major similarities in the core themes of the major world religions (social proaction, self-awareness, justice), and if you control for the effects of strange rituals and lifestyles, these similarities are even more similar to what is considered psychologically (and sometimes even physiologically) healthy! If the majority of people adhered to religion because of a belief in the belief system rather than the literal manifestation, it would show support for religion as belief in the psychological rather than the supernatural.

That could have major implications for psychology.

[S. Earl Martin]

Enigma: Your concept of the Judeo-Christian God as being a "peeping Tom God" is quite humorous. If you truly knew the Love and Power of God? God is omnipotent. God loves us and all God asks in return is that we respect God and worship God. Pride is a very powerful force. It can be a good thing or it can blind someone. Many people find it impossible to admit God exsists because they can't submit to Gods authority. That they are not the master and ruler of their world. We as humans have very little real power. We will all die and for the most part we are powerless to stop it. I have spent most of my life eating right and taking vitamins etc. Overall I am in pretty good health for my age. People tell me " you don't look sick". I don't look my age. But inside me Leukemia is destroying my body. I am doing what I can to slow it down, but it or something else will kill me. I have no problem with that. I am looking forward to the next life. I know Heaven is waiting. I know I will have perfect peace. I know I will be with those that have gone on before me. That is why I do not fear death. As far as a purpose to life I find Love thy neighbor as you love yourself is a pretty good purpose.

"You can not kill me. You can only make me stronger"

 

[Enigma]

So basically he's a peeping tom control freak on an ego trip?  You say you think people are scared to submit to God's authority; you're partly right; I have no interest in being the slave to a mythical being.  But I think you're scared of not having an authority to submit to; of being in control.  God is a hypothesis, just like any other scientific theory.  However it happens to be one with a massive amount of evidence refuting it.  I don't claim to know what happens after physical death (to do so is ignorance), but whatever it is I don't fear it.  In fact I'm rather curious.  I don't need God for that.


"We are all atheists about most of the Gods that humanity ever believed in.  Some of us just go one god further".

[S. Earl Martin]

If you could only see that by submiting to the will of God it is not slavery, but true freedom.

If "massive amounts" of evidence exists refuting the exsistance of God. Please feel free to share some of it I would be most interested in reading it.

I have experienced life after death and I am far from ignorant.

[Enigma]

Slavery is Freedom, how Orwellian. 


I suggest you start with "The God Delusion" By Richard Dawkins.


So you're claiming to be reincarnated now? 

[Stasy]

Slavery is Freedom, how Orwellian. 
I suggest you start with "The God Delusion" By Richard Dawkins.
So you're claiming to be reincarnated now? 

Why aren`t you serious?
What do you think about the creation of our world?Do you think people don`t have to  believe in God?Who believe you in? 

[Enigma]

As for the creation of the universe I don't claim to know who/what caused the big bang, but admitting ignorance doesn't make automatically make the Judeo-Christian idea of Creation right.  That's the problem with religion: it makes people content with ignorance.  "We can't figure out how the universe was created, so God must have did it". 

No, people don't have to believe in God.  Owning to the development of our frontal lobes, it's natural to ponder the meaning of our existence but God and religion are products of the human mind.  It was an early form of science; and attempt to explain the world around us. 

What do I believe in?  I believe in evidence.

[Stasy]

Having read your reply,it`s difficult to reply immediately.You`re a clever person,you`ve explained everithing up to the mark.You believe in evidence,so how do you explain the  miracles which happened with people?      

[Enigma]

Could you be more specific?  All I'll say is don't underestimate the power of the human mind.  Sometimes we will see only what we want to see and we have become very good at projecting our preconceptions onto perfectly legitimate phenomena.  Asylums are chock full of people claiming to be Napoleon or that the CIA is broadcasting radio waves into their head or that they can project their thoughts so excuse me if I take any personal testimony of miracles or personal contact with god with a huge grain of salt.  Also, like I said before just because there happens to be phenomena that is currently unexplainable does not make the "God did it" answer true. 

[Stasy]

Could you be more specific?  All I'll say is don't underestimate the power of the human mind.  Sometimes we will see only what we want to see and we have become very good at projecting our preconceptions onto perfectly legitimate phenomena.  Asylums are chock full of people claiming to be Napoleon or that the CIA is broadcasting radio waves into their head or that they can project their thoughts so excuse me if I take any personal testimony of miracles or personal contact with god with a huge grain of salt.  Also, like I said before just because there happens to be phenomena that is currently unexplainable does not make the "God did it" answer true. 

As I`ve told you - you`re clever,sensible,but I think you`re a bit realistic.I think we have to learn being more spontaneous.Some things cannot be explained,some events we have to feel.......I think so. I may be mistaken,I may be right....Time will show.......   

[S. Earl Martin]

I have read "the god delusion" or at least parts of it. It is not proof of anything except the opinion of a person bent on self gratification. You claim "massive amounts" of proof. That is hardly proof. Let alone massive amounts.

You say you want evidence. Okay! I have had a number of athiests tell me that either one of these things will happen when they die.
1 They will just disappear into nothingness. There is no evidence of anything just disappearing. Energy can become energy or matter to energy. Or matter to matter but, nothing just disappears.
2 They will return to the cosmos and be recycled. That is reincarnation. Not atheism and no evidence exists to support that either. Return to the cosmos where? Heaven or Hell maybe? It is just as probable.  

In nature it has be proven time and again that it takes life to make life. To think that somehow a bolt of lightening struck the primordial soup and magically life appeared is not supported by any evidence found in nature. Evidence shows that only living organisms can reproduce. So E.T. just appeared and started the process? That takes more faith than to believe that than an all powerful God did it. You believe in evidence? Okay then I tell you the truth. If you truly believe in God you will see evidance. I see it all the time. However if you don't believe in God the evidance will be right in front of you and you won't see it. Because you choose not to.

Also as to your Orwellian reference. In society we have to conform to certain rules so that order is maintained. The same applies to my relationship with God. I freely submit to the will of God. It is my choice. The rewards that result far outway any precieved "slavery".

I have read your reference book. You should try reading the Bible with an open mind. The wisdom contained in it is far greater than anything written by mankind. Yes I know that men actually wrote it down, but they were inspired by God.

I also know that no concrete evidence exists that God exists. That is where faith comes in. We have to believe in something by faith. Weather it is God or aliens, or reincarnation. It all takes faith. Even the big bang takes faith. No one was actually there to see it so it is a theory based on the best evidence humans have to this date. Something may come along and change what is believed. A new theory will emerge.

The difference is this. My belief in God doesn't change. I know God exists. I had a near death experience where I saw Heaven. I have discribed it here before. I believed in God before, but now I know Heaven is real. Nothing can change that.

I believe that soon beings will arrive on this planet and will fool alot of people with claims about themselves. Weather they are aligns, or humans altered to look like aligns. I am not sure. This planet is facing problems to big for us to solve. Many top scientists see it also. I see hatred and fear running wild. Even many of the people claiming to speak for God are spouting hatred and judgement. The fruit they are bearing is bad fruit. Love is being crushed and smothered in this world. I believe that soon the false prophets will arrive and fool many people. People like myself that speak the truth will be imprisoned or killed. Read the Revelation to John. It is the last book of the bible. It is the future of this planet. Solar flares are coming. Nasa says so. Nibiru is returning. It is Abaddon in the Bible. Called the destroyer. This world is going to experience a time like never before. Will you survive it? LOL!

Peace and good things be yours. Be blessed and may love abound in your life.  

[Stasy]

I have read "the god delusion" or at least parts of it. It is not proof of anything except the opinion of a person bent on self gratification. You claim "massive amounts" of proof. That is hardly proof. Let alone massive amounts.

You say you want evidence. Okay! I have had a number of athiests tell me that either one of these things will happen when they die.
1 They will just disappear into nothingness. There is no evidence of anything just disappearing. Energy can become energy or matter to energy. Or matter to matter but, nothing just disappears.
2 They will return to the cosmos and be recycled. That is reincarnation. Not atheism and no evidence exists to support that either. Return to the cosmos where? Heaven or Hell maybe? It is just as probable. 

In nature it has be proven time and again that it takes life to make life. To think that somehow a bolt of lightening struck the primordial soup and magically life appeared is not supported by any evidence found in nature. Evidence shows that only living organisms can reproduce. So E.T. just appeared and started the process? That takes more faith than to believe that than an all powerful God did it. You believe in evidence? Okay then I tell you the truth. If you truly believe in God you will see evidance. I see it all the time. However if you don't believe in God the evidance will be right in front of you and you won't see it. Because you choose not to.

Also as to your Orwellian reference. In society we have to conform to certain rules so that order is maintained. The same applies to my relationship with God. I freely submit to the will of God. It is my choice. The rewards that result far outway any precieved "slavery".

I have read your reference book. You should try reading the Bible with an open mind. The wisdom contained in it is far greater than anything written by mankind. Yes I know that men actually wrote it down, but they were inspired by God.

I also know that no concrete evidence exists that God exists. That is where faith comes in. We have to believe in something by faith. Weather it is God or aliens, or reincarnation. It all takes faith. Even the big bang takes faith. No one was actually there to see it so it is a theory based on the best evidence humans have to this date. Something may come along and change what is believed. A new theory will emerge.

The difference is this. My belief in God doesn't change. I know God exists. I had a near death experience where I saw Heaven. I have discribed it here before. I believed in God before, but now I know Heaven is real. Nothing can change that.
I believe that soon beings will arrive on this planet and will fool alot of people with claims about themselves. Weather they are aligns, or humans altered to look like aligns. I am not sure. This planet is facing problems to big for us to solve. Many top scientists see it also. I see hatred and fear running wild. Even many of the people claiming to speak for God are spouting hatred and judgement. The fruit they are bearing is bad fruit. Love is being crushed and smothered in this world. I believe that soon the false prophets will arrive and fool many people. People like myself that speak the truth will be imprisoned or killed. Read the Revelation to John. It is the last book of the bible. It is the future of this planet. Solar flares are coming. Nasa says so. Nibiru is returning. It is Abaddon in the Bible. Called the destroyer. This world is going to experience a time like never before. Will you survive it? LOL!
Peace and good things be yours. Be blessed and may love abound in your life. 

Your`ve wrtten this reply from the bottom of your heart.Thank you.We have to believe.....

[Enigma]

I have read "the god delusion" or at least parts of it. It is not proof of anything except the opinion of a person bent on self gratification. You claim "massive amounts" of proof. That is hardly proof. Let alone massive amounts.

You say you want evidence. Okay! I have had a number of athiests tell me that either one of these things will happen when they die.
1 They will just disappear into nothingness. There is no evidence of anything just disappearing. Energy can become energy or matter to energy. Or matter to matter but, nothing just disappears.
2 They will return to the cosmos and be recycled. That is reincarnation. Not atheism and no evidence exists to support that either. Return to the cosmos where? Heaven or Hell maybe? It is just as probable.  

Like I said, to claim you know what happens after you die is pure ignorance.  JUST BECAUSE WE ADMIT IGNORANCE DOES NOT MAKE RELIGION'S CLAIM TRUE.  How many times do I have to repeat this?

In nature it has be proven time and again that it takes life to make life. To think that somehow a bolt of lightening struck the primordial soup and magically life appeared is not supported by any evidence found in nature. Evidence shows that only living organisms can reproduce. So E.T. just appeared and started the process? That takes more faith than to believe that than an all powerful God did it.

Life evolved from very simple beginnings though natural selection.  There's no doubt that the emergence of life is an astronomically improbable event; but when considering the billion billion planets in the known universe, the concept of life emerging is not so far-fetched.  

You believe in evidence? Okay then I tell you the truth. If you truly believe in God you will see evidance. I see it all the time. However if you don't believe in God the evidance will be right in front of you and you won't see it. Because you choose not to.

Paranoid schizophrenics see evidence for their delusions but that doesn't make their claims true.  Your quote is basically the epitome of confirmation bias.

Also as to your Orwellian reference. In society we have to conform to certain rules so that order is maintained. The same applies to my relationship with God. I freely submit to the will of God. It is my choice. The rewards that result far outway any precieved "slavery".

I have read your reference book. You should try reading the Bible with an open mind. The wisdom contained in it is far greater than anything written by mankind. Yes I know that men actually wrote it down, but they were inspired by God.

I also know that no concrete evidence exists that God exists. That is where faith comes in. We have to believe in something by faith. Weather it is God or aliens, or reincarnation. It all takes faith. Even the big bang takes faith. No one was actually there to see it so it is a theory based on the best evidence humans have to this date. Something may come along and change what is believed. A new theory will emerge.

Religious faith is a cheap cop out; a surrender to ignorance.  "I don't have the cognitive capacity to understand this universe so god must have done it".  You're partly right: new theories will emerge, but they will be from learned men of science and supported by evidence, and then unfortunately even then the ignorant masses will ignore logic, reason, and evidence and put their blind trust in "faith" because they do not have the capacity to understand.

The difference is this. My belief in God doesn't change. I know God exists. I had a near death experience where I saw Heaven. I have discribed it here before. I believed in God before, but now I know Heaven is real. Nothing can change that.

So all I'm reading here is that you experienced a phenomenon and then reverted to your preconceptions without any attempt to investigate the event.  

I believe that soon beings will arrive on this planet and will fool alot of people with claims about themselves. Weather they are aligns, or humans altered to look like aligns. I am not sure. This planet is facing problems to big for us to solve. Many top scientists see it also. I see hatred and fear running wild. Even many of the people claiming to speak for God are spouting hatred and judgement. The fruit they are bearing is bad fruit. Love is being crushed and smothered in this world. I believe that soon the false prophets will arrive and fool many people. People like myself that speak the truth will be imprisoned or killed. Read the Revelation to John. It is the last book of the bible. It is the future of this planet. Solar flares are coming. Nasa says so. Nibiru is returning. It is Abaddon in the Bible. Called the destroyer. This world is going to experience a time like never before. Will you survive it? LOL!

Peace and good things be yours. Be blessed and may love abound in your life.  

LOL is right.  These delusional ramblings destroyed what little credibility you had left.  Their have been doomsayers since the dawn of civilization so forgive me if I don't exactly take you seriously.