Is there an existance of a soul?

[Patrickmeister]

Is there an existance of a soul? if so, what is it? What is it made of? Also, as an extention, does magic exist? What power somehow gives life to a lump of bones and flesh?

Feel free to discuss...

[pert -5]

A few questions.  By "soul" do you mean an eternal principle of the human condition, or something similar?  And what do you mean by "magic?"  That word means different things to different people.  Thanks.

[Patrickmeister]

by soul, i mean the non-physical part of a human being, and by magic, i mean religion/heaven, and the like

[SWM]

look for the writings of alice bailey published by the lucis trust. All her books can be read online at lucistrust.org

[SWM]

just to validate my last post as to why i believe alice bailey is worth reading for anyone seriously interested in the subject of this thread here is a quote from consciousness of the atom which touches upon only a fraction of the concepts presented by bailey on the subject

The recognition of the factor of the intelligence will inevitably lead us to the contemplation of the evolution of consciousness in its many forms, ranging all the way from those types of consciousness which we consider sub-human, through the human, up to what may be logically posited (even if it may not be demonstrated) to be superhuman consciousness.  The next question which will face us will be, What lies back of all these factors?  Is there, behind the objective form and its animating intelligence, an evolution which corresponds to the "I" faculty, to the Ego in man?  Is there in nature, and in all that we see around us, the working out of the purpose of an individualised self-conscious Being?  If there is such a Being, and such a fundamental existence, we should be able to see somewhat His intelligent activities, and to watch His plans working towards fruition.  Even if we cannot prove that God is, and that the Deity exists, it may be possible to say, at least, that the hypothesis that He exists is a reasonable one, a rational suggestion, and a possible solution of all the mysteries we see around us.  But to do that it has to be demonstrated that there is an intelligent purpose working through forms of every kind, through races and nations, and through all that we see manifesting in modern civilisation; the steps that that purpose has taken, and the gradual growth of the plan, will have to be demonstrated, and from that demonstration we shall perhaps be able to see what lies ahead for us in the coming stages.
 
Let us for the minute consider what we mean by the words "evolutionary process."  They are constantly being used, and the average man well knows that the word "evolution" suggests an unfolding from within outwards, and the unrolling from an inner centre, but we need to define the idea more clearly, and thus get a better concept.  One of the best definitions which I have come across is that which defines evolution as "the unfolding of a continually increasing power to respond."  Here we have a definition that is very illuminating as we consider the matter aspect of manifestation.  It involves the conception of vibration, and of response to vibration, and though we may in time have to discard the term "matter," and employ some such suggestion as "force centre," the concept still holds good, and the response of the centre to stimulation is even more accurately to be seen.  In considering human consciousness this same definition is of real value.  It involves the idea of a gradually increasing realisation, of the developing response of the subjective life to its environment, and it leads us eventually on and up to the ideal of a unified Existence which will be the synthesis of all the lines of evolution, and to a conception of a central Life, or force, which blends and holds together all the evolving units, whether they are units of matter, such as the atom of the chemist and physicist, or units of consciousness, such as human beings.  This is evolution, the process which unfolds the life within all units, the developing urge which eventually merges all units and all groups, until you have that sumtotal of manifestation which can be called Nature, or God, and which is the aggregate of all the states of consciousness.  This is the God to Whom the Christian refers when he says "in Him we live, and move, and have our being"; this is the force, or energy, which the scientist recognises; and this is the universal mind, or the Oversoul of the philosopher.  This, again, is the intelligent Will which controls, formulates, binds, constructs, develops, and brings all to an ultimate perfection.  This is that Perfection which is inherent in matter itself, and the tendency which is latent in the atom, in man, and in all that is.   This interpretation of the evolutionary process does not look upon it as the result of an outside Deity pouring His energy and wisdom upon a waiting world, but rather as something which is latent within that world itself, that lies hidden at the heart of the atom of chemistry, within the heart of man himself, within the planet, and within the solar system.  It is that something which drives all on toward the goal, and is the force which is gradually bringing order out of chaos; ultimate perfection out of temporary imperfection; good out of seeming evil; and out of darkness and disaster that which we shall some day recognise as beautiful, right, and true.  It is all that we have visioned and conceived of in our highest and best moments.
 

[pert -5]

Check this out Pat (in staying resonant with SWM's post):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_%28esotericism%29#Esoteric_conceptions

[m00se1989]

Is there an existance of a soul? if so, what is it? What is it made of? Also, as an extention, does magic exist? What power somehow gives life to a lump of bones and flesh?

Feel free to discuss...

soul=your brain=brain matter. magic does not exist, energy from what we eat... and the sun that makes what we eat... but also if by soul you mean a more subconscious side then yes. When you dream your soul presents itself in your sleep. your dreams reflect you subconscious desires. Per example. Freud's dream interpretations of the ID EGO and SUPER EGO. also when you "daydream" you enter your subconscious side as well. The real question is do we control our subconscious or does it control us??

[Patrickmeister]

m00se1989, if your soul = brains, why do dead people with completely intact brains die?

[SWM]

there is a fundamental problem in discussing this issue, the problem is one of perspective.  there is a prespective which views matter as the container of energy. in this view the brain (matter) contains the soul (energy). there is another perspective that is the opposite, energy (soul) is the container of matter (brain) . in this perspective the soul contains the brain. this is only an analogy but is along the lines of the problem of perspective.

what might be a more accurate description of the latter perspective is that the brain is an emanation of the soul. the soul has created a physical vehicle for itself to incarnate in this life.

the problem that the people who hold the first perspective have is that when they think of the body dying they think of the soul having no container, and therefore no possibility for continued existence.

from the other perspective the death of the physical vehicle is simply the action of the soul to stop emenating the body, there is a withdrawal of the energy of the soul.

[Patrickmeister]

well, I DO know one thing... Gingers dont have souls XD hahaha

[voodoo scientist]

No.

[docjp]

Is there an existance of a soul? if so, what is it? What is it made of? Also, as an extention, does magic exist? What power somehow gives life to a lump of bones and flesh?

Feel free to discuss...

The Soul is what gives any living thing its "life".  When the Soul is withdrawn, the thing dies.  The Soul is an aspect of God, projected and placed in the Creation to explore and experience what it can be?  I believe the Energy of the Soul is that of God, which I believe is "Neutral Spiritual Energy", or NSgy [thus the reason for the Creation in the first place].

True "magic" is using MIND to manipulate matter, and it is not uncommon and is demonstrated by advanced Yogis... but at considerable "cost" to themselves in terms of their Spiritual Development.  It increases ego, and this adds to ones Karmic burden, which prolongs the time one must remain in the Creation.

[pert -5]

Is there an existance of a soul? if so, what is it? What is it made of? Also, as an extention, does magic exist? What power somehow gives life to a lump of bones and flesh?

Feel free to discuss...

The Soul is what gives any living thing its "life".  When the Soul is withdrawn, the thing dies.  The Soul is an aspect of God, projected and placed in the Creation to explore and experience what it can be?  I believe the Energy of the Soul is that of God, which I believe is "Neutral Spiritual Energy", or NSgy [thus the reason for the Creation in the first place].

True "magic" is using MIND to manipulate matter, and it is not uncommon and is demonstrated by advanced Yogis... but at considerable "cost" to themselves in terms of their Spiritual Development.  It increases ego, and this adds to ones Karmic burden, which prolongs the time one must remain in the Creation.

According to Hinduism the "soul" is an underrated term.  Soul is an epiphenomenon of Abhinivesha, a love of self.  So little your little terms of "Karma" and "MIND" will stand.  Dude, you just don't know what the fuck you are talking about.  Simple.  Argue your points!!  But don't use that old, "you just can't understand because you are uninitiated..."   

[Patrickmeister]

however, even as all these explanations try to validate their claims to what a soul is, there is no definitive answer that we can all agree on, as there is no definitive answer that is in existance. All these claims are speculations on a topic that is possible impossible to know the truth of.

[kontra]

Personally I used to believe in a soul, in god, heaven etc... but honestly since I came to know about George Carlin and the book called No Ghost in The Machine I don't believe in these things anymore. Sadly I think these topics cannot be really discussed because you either believe or you don't and both sides will fight for their own belief.
The way I came to a conclusion was by separating myself from both, then sought answers. Neuro-science + Psychology gave me solid answers, religions and scriptures did not.

[psy_guy]

There's a big problem discussing such topics: One is a religious fanatic, another is just a religious guy, third is an a person with no opinion, and the other one is a guy, who does not believe in all those religious and magical stuff. They all have their perspectives to life. Even religions - one believes, that there is another life, another says, that the guy goes to hell or heaven, when he dies. So even religious people are not able to agree on the fact, that there is or isn't a soul.

I'm the science guy, I do not believe, that such a thing exists. Arguments? Ummm. Might injure religious peoples' feelings. But basically (I admit, only read half of that text of SWM's) I agree with some of the stuff that's written there.

[Enigma]

Neuroscience has disproved dualism.  The mind arises from the body.  There is no evidence to support the existence of any type of "soul" that is separate from the body.

[NataEames]

I always believed that we do have a soul but it dies when we die. When I was clinically dead for a few minutes, I just saw darkness around me.

[DamnedShadow88]

I'll have to get into more detail with my opinion when I am less tired, but here is an outline of my current belief.  The brain is a container.  The mind is contained within the brain and nervous tissue in the body.  Thus the mind must be made from electrons.  The soul, which I have yet to be able to intellectually explain, is a force that is able to hold the mind together.  The mind uses consciousness, the 5 physical senses, to react to the world.  It also uses the subconscious which senses the universe.  That meaning it can sense the world without the labels that conscious gives everything; everything is just energy.  Magick, I believe, is the ability to access the subconscious' ability to read the universe and thus fulfill prayers and change the world and such.  Repetition is a powerful tool.  Hence why religions use it a bunch.  The more time you spend thinking about something, the more likely it is to happen.  Within certain boundaries of course.  Our personality is changing every time we experience something.  It is very discrete.  And magick is very discrete in its ways.
I may have gone off topic, but w.e it happens.
To go back to the soul.  Who knows what it is made out of?  From what I have concluded it has to be something that holds the electrons together so that the specific electrons that make up a person do not dissipate when they die.  Also, electrons would have to be able to hold some kind of complex information about the person/entity.  Much like an instance variable (for all you computer knowledgeable people).

Hmm, didn't think I'd write so much.  anyways, comment, criticize, compare.  Question most of all.

[pert -5]

I'll have to get into more detail with my opinion when I am less tired, but here is an outline of my current belief.  The brain is a container.  The mind is contained within the brain and nervous tissue in the body.  Thus the mind must be made from electrons.  The soul, which I have yet to be able to intellectually explain, is a force that is able to hold the mind together.  The mind uses consciousness, the 5 physical senses, to react to the world.  It also uses the subconscious which senses the universe.  That meaning it can sense the world without the labels that conscious gives everything; everything is just energy.  Magick, I believe, is the ability to access the subconscious' ability to read the universe and thus fulfill prayers and change the world and such.  Repetition is a powerful tool.  Hence why religions use it a bunch.  The more time you spend thinking about something, the more likely it is to happen.  Within certain boundaries of course.  Our personality is changing every time we experience something.  It is very discrete.  And magick is very discrete in its ways.
I may have gone off topic, but w.e it happens.
To go back to the soul.  Who knows what it is made out of?  From what I have concluded it has to be something that holds the electrons together so that the specific electrons that make up a person do not dissipate when they die.  Also, electrons would have to be able to hold some kind of complex information about the person/entity.  Much like an instance variable (for all you computer knowledgeable people).

Hmm, didn't think I'd write so much.  anyways, comment, criticize, compare.  Question most of all.

First off, welcome to the forums!  Second, I notice that you spell "magick" with a "k" and I am curious as to why you choose that spelling.

Peace.

[voodoo scientist]

Neuroscience has disproved dualism.  The mind arises from the body.  There is no evidence to support the existence of any type of "soul" that is separate from the body.

While I fundamentally agree with your claim that the mind arises from the body, I find that's a curious claim from someone working in research. Has neuroscience really disproved the existence of a soul, now, or are you just taking the lack of neuroscientific evidence for a soul to imply the lack of a soul?

[Enigma]

I never said that neuroscience has disproved the existence of a soul.  I said that neuroscience has disproved dualism, the notion that the mind and the body are two separate entities.  I'm taking the lack of any objective empirical evidence for a soul to imply the lack of a soul.

Also, soul is a very subjective word.  What's your operational definition for soul?

[voodoo scientist]

I never said that neuroscience has disproved the existence of a soul.  I said that neuroscience has disproved dualism, the notion that the mind and the body are two separate entities.  I'm taking the lack of any objective empirical evidence for a soul to imply the lack of a soul.

Also, soul is a very subjective word.  What's your operational definition for soul?

I would argue that dualism implies the existence of a soul - what else could a mind existing outside of measurable reality be, in a dualistic sense (i.e. no Gaia theory)? I digress, they are interchangeable in my mind. However, I think you're misunderstanding my real point: the only way that neuroscience could disprove dualism is by accounting for the mind in its entirety.

Assuming it's even possible within the confines of neuroscience to do so, which we don't know yet, the field certainly has yet to do so so in any meaningful sense, and you cheapen science by claiming that it has in order to prove your preconceived point that dualism is false. While it is true is that there is no neuroscientific evidence for dualism, how could you operationalize dualism in neuroscientific terms to begin with?

[Enigma]

I think you're misunderstanding my real point: the only way that neuroscience could disprove dualism is by accounting for the mind in its entirety.

Care to say a bit more on this?

Assuming it's even possible within the confines of neuroscience to do so, which we don't know yet, the field certainly has yet to do so so in any meaningful sense, and you cheapen science by claiming that it has in order to prove your preconceived point that dualism is false.

Fair point, maybe disproved was a wrong choice of words.

While it is true is that there is no neuroscientific evidence for dualism, how could you operationalize dualism in neuroscientific terms to begin with?

I'd define dualism as the existence cognitive process(es) operating independent of the physical nervous system. 

[voodoo scientist]

My point exactly. Any cognitive process operating independently of the physical nervous system would be functionally invisible from a neuroscientific point of view, because neuroscience concerns itself with the study of the physical nervous system. Only by neuroscientifically accounting for the entire mind could you determine the lack of any such "blind spots," and only then make the claim that neuroscience has disproved dualism.

[Enigma]

Ahhh I see what you mean now.  Though I wouldn't quite call it functionally invisible.  We can't physically observe  thoughts, but we can deduce their existence by observing the results of their output.  If dualism or a soul existed, it would have to interact in some way with the nervous system, which means it would be in some way observable, so it could at least be partly studied neuroscientifically.   

[voodoo scientist]

The claim that dualism's existence requires interaction with the nervous system itself requires the assumption that the mind and body are fully connected, and thus, is something of a silly claim to make. For instance, assuming instead that the mind does not arise from the body alone, the effect could just as well be similar to a neural network, with the soul and the body, or various parts of the soul and the body, providing inhibiting or exciting impulses.

If this were the case, and I'm not saying I find it likely, neuroscience would have no way to detect or account for the phenomenon. For all intents and purposes, neuroscience would keep on correlating behavior, reports and so forth to various outputs as if nothing was amiss, seemingly getting ever closer until some day everything was neuroscientifically accounted for and the puzzle pieces still didn't quite fit - at which point one could begin to investigate the pattern with which they didn't fit, so to speak. Thus, it would certainly be functionally invisible, as would any number of other scenarios.

[island_fever]

I know this thread is kind of old, however, if you're interested, Sir Roger Penrose and Dr. Stuart Hameroff explore this very subject in terms of space-time and  non-locality as described in quantum mechanics.   It's very interesting work which deals with consciousness and describes a model for the "soul".  There is information all over the place on in.  One need not be a physicist to understand the basic theory and it is quite interesting.