Good books that could help relationships

[liza123]

I read this book some time ago. It was my friend 's book. One of my all time favorites...The Road Less Travelled by M. Scott Peck. I would recommend this book for

a) husband and wife who may or may not face problems in their relationship(you may get some insight on how to imporve your current relationship!)
b) any couple planning to get married...just in case!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck....for bio on the author.

What about you? Anything to recommend?

[Coffey77]

Oh boy, where to start...  

Rescue Your Love Life by Henry Cloud and John Townsend http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0785289151?ie=UTF8&tag=pfama-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0785289151


Boundaries in Marriage http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310243149?ie=UTF8&tag=pfama-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0310243149

The Love Dare was pretty good... (Watch the movie Fireproof with Kirk Cameron for an idea of the book) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805448853?ie=UTF8&tag=pfama-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0805448853

or just about any book by Cloud and Townsend has been passed around by me.  Hopefully I can pick up a copy of the book you've suggested.  Thanks!

[liza123]

thanks for your list of books . I am not an agent for Scott Peck 's book but, I would say a 'must read' book for marriage relationships. I have read Men are from Mars and Women are from Women and others. But, this is the best book that is an eye opener. even Scott had trouble in his marriage until he realised the true meaning of marriage.

[Coffey77]

Marriage is a difficult process, there is no doubt about that.  I believe in continual reading, counseling, and whatever else it takes to make the marriage work.  We can't do it alone, or at least, we shouldn't.  We should do it with safe people we can trust.

It does help me to now have examples to associate things with.  I guess that is the good part about having been married.  Others can only gather the information, but don't really know what to expect until it has already hit them, and gotten past them.  Things tend to happen so quickly, we barely have time to react.  My best advice.  Learn to listen to your emotions - and find someone who is open and willing to constructively talk through them with you.  That can be the hardest part, that thing they call "communication" in a relationship.  So many factors influence this one, important skill.

[liza123]

What do you mean by 'safe people whom we can trust'?

Thanks for your advice about communication. But, I have one question. Do you not think that it is important that we understand each other? If there is no compatibility of characters, do you not think that it will be hard to understand each other? Yes, listening is an important skill to understand as you say. But, compatibility is important, isn 't it?

[Coffey77]

When I safe people, I mean people you can trust.  As you establish your morals and values, and most importantly, ACT on those morals and values, only then can you be trusted.  "The action speaks louder than the word."

Same goes for the safe people you want around you, those you can trust.  Many people talk a big game, but do the DO a big game?

As you move through life and stick to your path of "light", you will probably start letting go of the "dark" people around you.  You will also run into more people of "light".

It is sad because we can lose some long time friends this way, but you'll find that having them around probably just keeps you stuck in place.  Once you are able to let them go, you will feel freer.  I am having to let go of old friends.  I am loving my new path, talking about things I enjoy.  If they want to come with me, they will have to change their ways to follow me.  I KNOW my way is better for me.  I also know that, if I stay with them, I will stay stuck.  I want to climb and move.  I want to go!  If they like what I'm doing, they'll follow.  And they'll find they are better people because of it.

I just told a friend of mine today that I enjoy hanging out with the group, but they act like a bunch of childish frat boys.  I would much rather talk about their successes, the families, and their future goals.  They would rather stay out late getting wasted and smoking weed.  I've never done drugs, aside from alcohol, but I see how it affects them.  I feel like I'm watching a bunch of children.  I start feeling bad for all their wives having to take care of such children.  I like a good beer every now and again, don't get me wrong.  I'm just tired of having too many and my life being hell the next day or two.  I'm getting older ya know!

[Coffey77]

Do you not think that it is important that we understand each other?

I do think it is important, of course.  But, people rarely do understand one another.  We all grow up with different backgrounds and different ways to communicate.  There are soooo many variables.

If there is no compatibility of characters, do you not think that it will be hard to understand each other?

More than likely, if you aren't compatible character wise, you aren't going to stay with that person.  You may hang in there for awhile, hoping the person will change.  But unless that person shows signs of wanting to discuss and learn or to change, they aren't going to change.  When you let that person into your life, you tolerated something bad about their character that was important to you in hopes they would change.  They don't change so you are left with what you tolerated, the very same person you started the relationship with.  You start to not tolerate anything, you find someone good who "fits" you.  Unfortunately, you've narrowed your choices.   Luckily, there are places out there to go.  There's a lot of good people out there to be found.

Yes, listening is an important skill to understand as you say. But, compatibility is important, isn 't it?

Have you ever heard anyone say, "But they were so perfect together, what happened?" or "They were so happy."?  Maybe someone you know, maybe even a relationship you had?  My marriage was like that.  On the surface, we were the perfect couple.  Always smiling, always happy around others.  Held hands all the time, the whole schpeal.  We were definitely "compatible."  What makes a marriage work is so much more.  A good marriage takes TONS of work and can be difficult to learn.  The key I believe, is finding someone willing to see and accept their responsibilities in problems within the marriage, and to be willing to work on the problems collectively.  No avoidance, anger, defensiveness, blaming.  Just two adults having an adult conversation about something that "bugs" the other person where they can come to a mutual agreement.  Also, if something "bugs" someone, they have to know that it is their responsibility to bring up what is bugging them, and the other person would be willing to listen and to understand to a point where the first partner KNOWS the other person understands...  Does this make any sense?  I tend to get ahead of myself...

[liza123]

I agree with you,"Actions do speak louder than words". I tend to observe people in such a way as well. Because I have known people who are such 'beautiful talkers' but, they would not help you when you really need help...

with reference to the your post about 'safe people etc...'

[liza123]

I do think it is important, of course.  But, people rarely do understand one another.  We all grow up with different backgrounds and different ways to communicate.  There are soooo many variables.

Thanks for your explanation. I thought about it. You are right. It is hard to understand another individual because of all the variables....
I think that trying to find someone that "fits" me would be a bad idea as well...I think that it should be something like some sort of compatibility at the mental plane or spiritual plane.something to work on after getting married?
In simple words, communication is a vital factor in marriage(apart from the willingness to accept that marriage needs hard work with resposibilities)?

[Coffey77]

Communication is key.  Differences of opinion are a definite in any relationship.  As someone once told me, "If there are no arguments then someone is not being present in the relationship."  I wouldn't necessarily say "after marriage."  Communication skills can be found before marriage.  That's what dating is all about.  It's the ability to have a choice to leave the relationship, to pick and choose.  If you are married, then depending on your beliefs, you would do best to stick to the marriage and do whatever it takes to learn communication.  But, if you already struggle with communication with someone, and it's been going that way for a long time...  It may be time to get out and let the relationship go.  Trying to change someone doesn't work unless they, themselves want to change.  Depending on how much YOU want to put into the relationship is what matters.

What I'm finding out is that there are plenty of "fish in the sea" out there.  Each one having different capabilities.  As I date, I find out what my "bad picks" are, what I thought I used to like and why I don't like those "types" anymore today.  I am finding new dates who are already on the path of growth, know how to communicate better.  I found that I avoid confrontation - so as I grow and learn to confront, I find others who can't confront, those who confront VERY poorly (anger/manipulation/guilt), and then those who can confront very well.  It's great to be able to see that.  And since I'm not married to those I find can't confront well, I am free to move on.

[liza123]

Ah, we go back to understanding as well, do not you think? If we do not have certain amount of understanding/compatibility, we will find it hard to communicate with other person. I say, "A" and you say, "B". So, there must be some sort of 'meeting point' on a mental/spiritual/emotional level. I agree with you that trying to change another person does not work. People tell me that and I do not buy it. The person himself or herself has to decide to change.

And, yes, there are many fishes in the sea but choosing the right one is important to have a mutually 'growing' marriage(two people growing together). Now that I think of it, I think that 'dating'/meeting people did help me to learn more about myself and what I wanted. The other thing is that when I began to 'mature', my lookout for the type of guy began to change as well. I began to look for someone who is more matured. That was a good point you made about confrontation. It is something for me to store...

[Coffey77]

"Understanding" is a difficult word and I'm getting hung up on it each time.  Maybe it is because I'm thinking of understanding/compatibility as you say it meaning more toward "chemistry."  Understanding is a learned skill that happens over time, I believe.  But, there is never a true understanding with couples, the ways they grow up are just too variable.  There is always a learning curve.  It depends on how "open" the other person is to that learning.  Some aren't open to learning anything, others love to learn.  There are many couples who go through life not understanding one another and they cope in their own, special ways.  If you're talking about "chemistry", I believe there has to be something that "turns you on" about the other person, but I don't believe it has to be initial.  I've seen chemistry grow over time between two people who had no initial interest between one another in that sense.  I think it helps when two people have certain interests, like growth and learning and spirituality.  You might find you are more drawn toward someone who enjoys discussions about those subjects.  I know I am looking for someone who doesn't mind getting a little dirty, who would like to spend time with me hiking, and also working with me to overcome our psychological disadvantages.

While dating, I can look for a partner, not someone I have to babysit or take care of.  I can leave those people behind.  I want someone who will walk with me, beside me, as an equal partner.  When we aren't equal, I'd like to be able to discuss that with them and reach your amicable outcome that you suggest.  The idea is to learn from one another, gain different viewpoints.  Women can teach men how to look at their emotional sides while men can teach women to be a bit more focused to help keep those emotions a little more in check.

I agree that choosing the right one is VERY important.  I'm just saying there is no reason to "settle" until you've found one that SHOWS they are willing to do all the things you'd like.  No one will do ALL the things you like, if they do, they are lying and manipulating your perceptions of them, so then you have to decide what is most important, what you can live with and what you can't.  If religion/spiritual growth/? is priority to you, then don't stop short of anyone who is already very into that.  You can choose to understand that the person you care for may never be interested in such a thing and you can just go about growth.  Sometimes, when one person in a relationship chooses the growth path, the other one is forced to grow in order to keep up and to in that relationship.

[Coffey77]

Maybe you can help me understand a bit more about your idea of "understanding" .

If I could suggest another book, or audiobook actually, check out "It's Not My Fault!". I downoaded this last week from iTunes for $7 and have listened to it everyday for the past week.  It is AWESOME!  One of the best I've read/heard yet.  I like to listen to these books while I'm working.

[liza123]

Referring to your post about chemistry and whatnot. I was not referring to chemistry. From what I understand and the book that I read, most people mean physical attraction by chemistry. Chemistry may or may not last. Chemistry is something that is natural, meant for procreation...

What I mean by understanding is ... compatibility in terms of a person 's nature/character/mental compatibility. Eg, when you come across someone whom you do not know and have to keep explaining and still the person does not get your point because of the difference in levels or whatever. It is the same with 'friends'. That is one part of understanding. The meeting point part. And then, there is the other. Listening is an important skill. I have learnt that some people do not listen to you,meaning they do not concentrate on you. When that happens, some of what you say goes out through the other ear. Listening is a skill that is valuable because it gives insight into another person(you open yourself to get the message from the other person, you concentrate on that person). If you concentrate on something or someone, you tend to understand better. Do you get my meaning?

Yes, the equal partnership part is important. Have you read Kahlil Gibran 's poem on marriage?

[liza123]

Maybe you can help me understand a bit more about your idea of "understanding" .

If I could suggest another book, or audiobook actually, check out "It's Not My Fault!". I downoaded this last week from iTunes for $7 and have listened to it everyday for the past week.  It is AWESOME!  One of the best I've read/heard yet.  I like to listen to these books while I'm working.

I have already explained my meaning of "understanding". Thanks for your suggestion. I will check it out. I have never heard of audio books before

[Coffey77]

Thanks for the explanation!  I think I have a better understanding now.   I agree that it is nice to have a good level of communication between partners, but I belive it is a rarity.  I think the best couples are ones that can conmprimise best as well as admit when they are wrong.  There can also be more than one right so to know that helps.  Looking back, my ex believed in only one way to do something - her way.  If someone, anyone, failed to do something "her way", or the way that made the most sense to her, they failed her and she was hurt and upset.  In her mind people failed her every day.  I feel for her and the life she lives as it will be a constant failure unless she can figure out how to change.  Coupled with the fact that she determined to give up when she felt someone "just didn't get it" and there was then no hope... When, in fact, she merely exhauted the LIMITED information she knew on how to do something...  Well, let's just say, if you ever feel like you've tried everything, there's still one more thing out there left to find.

[liza123]

Sorry, but my thoughts differ a bit. I just received a file about 7 choices of life, one choice is the choice of listening :
One of the best ways to build a connection with others is to listen to them.
Take the focus off yourself and put it on the other person. This draws others to you because you place importance on others.
When you choose to do all the talking, you rarely build strong or sustainable relationships. You are a turn-off and  people will avoid you.

That is what I meant by understanding(in part). If you do not listen to someone, you will not understand the other person. People hear what you say, do they really listen?

I think that it is possible to have a certain level of understanding with another person(a meeting point). Some people just do not get it much of what you are saying  but some people do. This refers to relationships as friends or whatever. No two people can have perfect understanding or nearly perfect. But, you can have a certan level, better than others. You will simply know/sense.

[liza123]

Your ex reminds me of someone whom I know. She was like that and she still is, she is 64 now. I do not think that she is going to change until she dies. Everybody is wrong except her and she has many broken relationships

[hortonpilot]

If all else fails try being honest?

My wife and i had many troubles when we met . mainly negative and destructive behavior , manipulation.
She had never really met anyone like me and it was confronting to be told how manipulative she was and the poor outcomes.
I very pragmaticaly told her the alternatives  to the destructive behavior, that to be destructive was such a waste of time and energy.
Gradually she came to understand that it was better to make better choices , build rather than destroy and be particular who you let into your life.

Before this i had to say to her i will leave you if you don't make the changes for the better. Choosing to be happy rather than live in a state of tension made sense to me .
Our lives for the most part are peaceful and we have a stable marriage.

Horton.

[liza123]

You have a very good point, Horton. That was the problem with the person who is 64. Her husband did not give her an ulimatum like you did. A lot of people who knew them said that he should have. Sometimes, you have to draw a line like you did. Then, the onus is on the other person to make changes or not. someitmes, there is a postive reaction as in your case. 

[Coffey77]

It is great to hear how that does work.  I know for my relationship (which failed), I could not bring myself to tell her things that she was "failing" at.  My family past gave me tools on avoidance and appeasement which I use quite well and it has been a huge struggle to overcome for me.

Another good book:

Secrets of Your Family Tree - http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Your-Family-Tree-Dysfunctional/dp/0802477496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251550410&sr=8-1

It is based upon passages of the bible, but only to show the similarities between what is written and real life stories.  It has been a great book, so far, that has given me straight Psychological ideas as to where my trouble started, and helps me to understand that I am not alone.

[hortonpilot]

I certainly did not give my wife "an ultimatum" because i wanted control of her, i did it because i cared enough about my own feelings and hers.
It is important for people to know where they stand with you, but first you must know this for yourself?
I had a number of back to back relationships were i did not get what i needed and this was despite being honest to say what i was after at the start of each. Some great despair i experienced as a result.
Beyond that i realised i had to take more control in determining what happened in my life.
Theoreticaly it was interesting as i knew what i should do for years but it was taking the final step to jump over the edge and put my feelings to the fore rather than have my time wasted in part.

 King Lear is a wonderful play which should be taught to all.
If we love another we should behave beyond our fears. We are their to guide and nurture those close to us if we can. some are incapable of this as they are in a state of arrested development that lasts till death
 Many things pushed me down the path of wanting to understand the mechanics of relationships and why they fail.
Frankly my eyes were opened when i started looking at human behavior and when you examine things in minute detail you see things are not what hey appear.
The behaviorist paved the way to choosing better outcomes.
I think people don't always like it if you are honest, but then it is their problem.

it is worth bearing in mind that ignorance is no excuse where it comes to other people contributing to your grief.
Like the silly ,
" I don't mean to sound rude."
makes you wonder?

Horton

[Joni]

I read many of the posts here, and am also a fan of M. Scott Peck. I do want to make an observation. None of the posts seem to mention having mutual goals. I saw a lot about the work involved, but that makes the relationship seem like a power struggle at times at least. If someone says "if you loved me you'd..." in an effort to be manipulative, why not answer "You have a strange definition of love, tell me about it." Then share your own.