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What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« on: August 28, 2009, 07:56:25 PM »
Dealing With Manipulative People

An excerpt from the book In Sheep's Clothing
By George K. Simon

Basic Types of Aggression
There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

Acts of Covert-Aggression vs. Covert-Aggressive Personalities
Most of us have engaged in some sort of covertly aggressive behavior from time to time. Periodically trying to manipulate a person or a situation doesn't make someone a covert-aggressive personality. Personality can be defined by the way a person habitually perceives, relates to and interacts with others and the world at large.

The tactics of deceit, manipulation and control are a steady diet for covert-aggressive personality. It's the way they prefer to deal with others and to get the things they want in life.

The Process of Victimization
For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons:

   1. A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our feelings.
   2. The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting, caring, defending, almost anything but fighting. These tactics are hard to recognize as merely clever ploys. They always make just enough sense to make a person doubt their gut hunch that they're being taken advantage of or abused. Besides, the tactics not only make it hard for you to consciously and objectively tell that a manipulator is fighting, but they also simultaneously keep you or consciously on the defensive. These features make them highly effective psychological weapons to which anyone can be vulnerable. It's hard to think clearly when someone has you emotionally on the run.
   3. All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. Sometimes, we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone might use them to take advantage of us. For example, I hear parents say things like: "Yeah, I know I have a big guilt button." But at the time their manipulative child is busily pushing that button, they can easily forget what's really going on. Besides, sometimes we're unaware of our biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when and how hard. Our lack of self-knowledge sets us up to be exploited.
   4. What our gut tells us a manipulator is like, challenges everything we've been taught to believe about human nature. We've been inundated with a psychology that has us seeing everybody, at least to some degree, as afraid, insecure or "hung-up." So, while our gut tells us we're dealing with a ruthless conniver, our head tells us they must be really frightened or wounded "underneath." What's more, most of us generally hate to think of ourselves as callous and insensitive people. We hesitate to make harsh or seemingly negative judgments about others. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't really harbor the malevolent intentions we suspect. We're more apt to doubt and blame ourselves for daring to believe what our gut tells us about our manipulator's character.

Recognizing Aggressive Agendas
Accepting how fundamental it is for people to fight for the things they want and becoming more aware of the subtle, underhanded ways people can and do fight in their daily endeavors and relationships can be very consciousness expanding. Learning to recognize an aggressive move when somebody makes one and learning how to handle oneself in any of life's many battles, has turned out to be the most empowering experience for the manipulation victims with whom I've worked. It's how they eventually freed themselves from their manipulator's dominance and control and gained a much needed boost to their own sense of self esteem. Recognizing the inherent aggression in manipulative behavior and becoming more aware of the slick, surreptitious ways that manipulative people prefer to aggress against us is extremely important. Not recognizing and accurately labeling their subtly aggressive moves causes most people to misinterpret the behavior of manipulators and, therefore, fail to respond to them in an appropriate fashion. Recognizing when and how manipulators are fighting with covertly aggressive tactics is essential.

Defense Mechanisms and Offensive Tactics
Almost everyone is familiar with the term defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are the "automatic" (i.e. unconscious) mental behaviors all of us employ to protect or defend ourselves from the "threat" of some emotional pain. More specifically, ego defense mechanisms are mental behaviors we use to "defend" our self-images from "invitations" to feel ashamed or guilty about something. There are many different kinds of ego defenses and the more traditional (psychodynamic) theories of personality have always tended to distinguish the various personality types, at least in part, by the types of ego defenses they prefer to use. One of the problems with psychodynamic approaches to understanding human behavior is that they tend to depict people as most always afraid of something and defending or protecting themselves in some way; even when they're in the act of aggressing. Covert-aggressive personalities (indeed all aggressive personalities) use a variety of mental behaviors and interpersonal maneuvers to help ensure they get what they want. Some of these behaviors have been traditionally thought of as defense mechanisms.

While, from a certain perspective we might say someone engaging in these behaviors is defending their ego from any sense of shame or guilt, it's important to realize that at the time the aggressor is exhibiting these behaviors, he is not primarily defending (i.e. attempting to prevent some internally painful event from occurring), but rather fighting to maintain position, gain power and to remove any obstacles (both internal and external) in the way of getting what he wants.

Seeing the aggressor as on the defensive in any sense is a set-up for victimization. Recognizing that they're primarily on the offensive, mentally prepares a person for the decisive action they need to take in order to avoid being run over. Therefore, I think it's best to conceptualize many of the mental behaviors (no matter how "automatic" or "unconscious" they may appear) we often think of as defense mechanisms, as offensive power tactics, because aggressive personalities employ them primarily to manipulate, control and achieve dominance over others. Rather than trying to prevent something emotionally painful or dreadful from happening, anyone using these tactics is primarily trying to ensure that something they want to happen does indeed happen. Using the vignettes presented in the previous chapters for illustration, let's take a look at the principal tactics covert-aggressive personalities use to ensure they get their way and maintain a position of power over their victims:

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. This denial is not the same kind of denial that a person who has just lost a loved one and can't quite bear to accept the pain and reality of the loss engages in. That type of denial really is mostly a "defense" against unbearable hurt and anxiety. Rather, this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong.

In the story of James the minister, James' denial of his ruthless ambition is massive. He denied he was hurting and neglecting his family. He especially denied he was aggressively pursuing any personal agenda. On the contrary, he cast himself as the humble servant to a honorable cause. He managed to convince several people (and maybe even himself) of the nobility and purity of his intentions. But underneath it all, James knew he was being dishonest: This fact is borne out in his reaction to the threat of not getting a seat on the Elders' Council if his marital problems worsened. When James learned he might not get what he was so aggressively pursuing after all, he had an interesting "conversion" experience. All of a sudden, he decided he could put aside the Lord's bidding for a weekend and he might really need to devote more time to his marriage and family. James' eyes weren't opened by the pastor's words. He always kept his awareness high about what might hinder or advance his cause. He knew if he didn't tend to his marriage he might lose what he really wanted. So, he chose (at least temporarily) to alter course.

In the story of Joe and Mary, Mary confronted Joe several times about what she felt was insensitivity and ruthlessness on his part in his treatment of Lisa. Joe denied his aggressiveness. He also successfully convinced Mary that what she felt in her gut was his aggressiveness was really conscientiousness, loyalty, and passionate fatherly concern. Joe wanted a daughter who got all A's. Mary stood in the way. Joe's denial was the tactic he used to remove Mary as an obstacle to what he wanted.

Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. In the story of Jenny and Amanda, Jenny tried to tell Amanda she was losing privileges because she was behaving irresponsibly. But Amanda wouldn't listen. Her teachers tried to tell her what she needed to do to improve her grade: but she didn't listen to them either. Actively listening to and heeding the suggestions of someone else are, among other things, acts of submission. And, as you may remember from the story, Amanda is not a girl who submits easily. Determined to let nothing stand in her way and convinced she could eventually "win" most of her power struggles with authority figures through manipulation, Amanda closed her ears. She didn't see any need to listen. From her point of view, she would only have lost some power and control if she submitted herself to the guidance and direction offered by those whom she views as less powerful, clever and capable as herself.

Rationalization – A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have) but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals without interference.

In the story of little Lisa, Mary felt uneasy about the relentlessness with which Joe pursued his quest to make his daughter an obedient, all-A student once again. And, she was aware of Lisa's expressed desire to pursue counseling as a means of addressing and perhaps solving some of her problems. Although Mary felt uneasy about Joe's forcefulness and sensed the impact on her daughter, she allowed herself to become persuaded by his rationalizations that any concerned parent ought to know his daughter better than some relatively dispassionate outsider and that he was only doing his duty by doing as much as he possibly could to "help" his "little girl." When a manipulator really wants to make headway with their rationalizations they'll be sure their excuses are combined with other effective tactics. For example, when Joe was "selling" Mary on the justification for shoving his agenda down everyone's throat he was also sending out subtle invitations for her to feel ashamed (shaming her for not being as "concerned" a parent as he was) as well as making her feel guilty (guilt-tripping her) for not being as conscientious as he was pretending to be.

Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas.

Rather than respond directly to the issue being addressed, Amanda diverted attention to her teacher's and classmates' treatment of her. Jenny allowed Amanda to steer her off track. She never got a straight answer to the question.

Another example of a diversion tactic can be found in the story of Don and Al. Al changed the subject when Don asked him if he had any plans to replace him. He focused on whether he was unhappy or not with Don's sales performance – as if that's what Don had asked him about in the first place. He never gave Don a straight answer to a straight question (manipulators are notorious for this). He told him what he thought would make Don feel less anxious and would steer him away from pursuing the matter any further. Al left feeling like he'd gotten an answer but all he really got was the "runaround."

Early in the current school year, I found it necessary to address my son's irresponsibility about doing his homework by making a rule that he bring his books home every night. One time I asked: "Did you bring your books home today?" His response was: "Guess what, Dad. Instead of tomorrow, we're not going to have our test – until Friday." My question was simple and direct. His answer was deliberately evasive and diversionary. He knew that if he answered the question directly and honestly, he would have received a consequence for failing to bring his books home. By using diversion (and also offering a rationalization) he was already fighting with me to avoid that consequence. Whenever someone is not responding directly to an issue, you can safely assume that for some reason, they're trying to give you the slip.

Lying – It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. But there are also times when you don't know you've been deceived until it's too late. One way to minimize the chances that someone will put one over on you is to remember that because aggressive personalities of all types will generally stop at nothing to get what they want, you can expect them to lie and cheat. Another thing to remember is that manipulators – covert-aggressive personalities that they are – are prone to lie in subtle, covert ways. Courts are well aware of the many ways that people lie, as they require that court oaths charge that testifiers tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Manipulators often lie by withholding a significant amount of the truth from you or by distorting the truth. They are adept at being vague when you ask them direct questions. This is an especially slick way of lying' omission. Keep this in mind when dealing with a suspected wolf in sheep's clothing. Always seek and obtain specific, confirmable information.

Covert Intimidation – Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Guilt-tripping – One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon. Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.

Shaming – This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance.

When Joe loudly proclaimed any "good" parent would do just as he was doing to help Lisa, he subtly implied Mary would be a "bad" parent if she didn't attempt to do the same. He "invited" her to feel ashamed of herself. The tactic was effective. Mary eventually felt ashamed for taking a position that made it appear she didn't care enough about her own daughter. Even more doubtful of her worth as a person and a parent, Mary deferred to Joe, thus enabling him to rein a position of dominance over her. Covert-aggressives are expert at using shaming tactics in the most subtle ways. Sometimes it can just be in the glances they give or the tone of voice they use. Using rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm and other techniques, they can invite you to feel ashamed of yourself for even daring to challenge them. Joe tried to shame Mary when I considered accepting the educational assessment performed by Lisa's school. He said something like: "I'm not sure what kind of doctor you are or just what kind of credentials you have, but I'm sure you'd agree that a youngster's grades wouldn't slip as much as Lisa's for no reason. You couldn't be entirely certain she didn't have a learning disability unless you did some testing, could you?' With those words, he "invited" Mary to feel ashamed of herself for not at least considering doing just as he asked. If Mary didn't have a suspicion about what he was up to, she might have accepted this invitation without a second thought.

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress.

In the story of Amanda and Jenny, Amanda was good at playing the victim role too. She had her mother believing that she (Amanda) was the victim of extremely unfair treatment and the target of unwarranted hostility. I remember Jenny telling me: "Sometimes I think Amanda's wrong when she says her teacher hates her and I hate her. But what if that's what she really believes? Can I afford to be so firm with her if she believes in her heart that I hate her?" I remember telling Jenny: "Whether Amanda has come to believe her own distortions is almost irrelevant. She manipulates you because you believe that she believes it and allow that supposed belief to serve as an excuse for her undisciplined aggression."

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.

Returning again to the story of Jenny and Amanda, when Amanda accuses her mother of "hating" her and "always saying mean things" to her, she not only invites Jenny to feel the "bully," but simultaneously succeeds in "bullying" Jenny into backing off. More than any other, the tactic of vilifying the victim is a powerful means of putting someone unconsciously on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent and behavior of the person using the tactic.

Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. In the story of James (the minister) and Sean, James appeared to many to be the tireless servant. He attended more activities than he needed to attend and did so eagerly. But if devoted service to those who needed him was his aim, how does one explain the degree to which James habitually neglected his family? As an aggressive personality, James submits himself to no one. The only master he serves is his own ambition. Not only was playing the servant role an effective tactic for James, but also it's the cornerstone upon which corrupt ministerial empires of all types are built. A good example comes to mind in the recent true story of a well-known tele-evangelist who locked himself up in a room in a purported display of "obedience" and "service" to God. He even portrayed himself' a willing sacrificial lamb who was prepared to be "taken by God" if he didn't do the Almighty's bidding and raise eight million dollars. He claimed he was a humble servant, merely heeding the Lord's will. He was really fighting to save his substantial material empire.

Another recent scandal involving a tele-evangelist resulted in his church's governance body censuring him for one year. But he told his congregation he couldn't stop his ministry because he had to be faithful to the Lord's will (God supposedly talked to him and told him not to quit). This minister was clearly being defiant of his church's established authority. Yet, he presented himself as a person being humbly submissive to the "highest" authority. One hallmark characteristic of covert-aggressive personalities is loudly professing subservience while fighting for dominance.

Seduction – Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered) want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than anything. Appearing to be attentive to these needs can be a manipulator's ticket to incredible power over others. Shady "gurus" like Jim Jones and David Koresh seemed to have refined this tactic to an art. In the story of Al and Don, Al is the consummate seducer. He melts any resistance you might have to giving him your loyalty and confidence. He does this by giving you what he knows you need most. He knows you want to feel valued and important. So, he often tells you that you are. You don't find out how unimportant you really are to him until you turn out to be in his way.

Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize. Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in by them.

Dealing With Manipulative People

An excerpt from the book In Sheep's Clothing
By George K. Simon

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 03:14:13 AM »
My family uses all those tactics.

voodoo scientist

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 02:39:08 PM »
This is a book I can't recommend enough. Don't stop at exerpts, get the whole thing. Even if you're not into the manipulation scene, this book will change the way you look at both internal and external communication - thought and speech. Simon does an amazing job at explaining the basic techniques and how their effectiveness increase the more you can weave together, as well as a great job giving examples of how these apply in real life situations. The only problem is that he's a scholar, not actually a manipulator, and this should be read with that in mind. He's reporting to you what he has observed and analyzed, not something he has truly tried and internalized.

It's an interesting read in itself, but it's also simply extremely useful because the vast majority of manipulators are adepts with a natural affinity who've never done a good day's worth of self-coaching. With just this book, you'll know at least 80% of what they know and will be able to identify and neutralize them with relative ease, even if you're morally opposed or naturally disinclined towards this kind of stuff. On top of that, you'll be able to put your strategies to words and improve them with time, which they can't do.

In short, get this.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 02:39:52 PM by voodoo scientist »
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S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2009, 03:38:13 AM »
Well I am back. I was doing some work and over stressed myself. Between the work and recovering from the symptoms of the Leukemia. I was pretty busy. Praise God, I am well enough to participate again.


For the most part I agree with this text and the assertions. However some of the statements could be debated weather they were something you know or something you just think you know. Sometimes it could just be a definite possibility, but you can't know for sure. However I would consider it correct and accurate.  
What I would add is this. It is about motivational factors, reinforcement, goals, and intent.

1. Motivational factors can be addressed in two ways. Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement.  
An example: When I operated my own company my management style was this. I would approach my employee's in one of several ways.
If they were doing a good job I would point out to them what I liked about their work and let them know I understood their job and then I would offer any critique I felt was necessary. This was positive reinforcement.
If they were not preforming to my expectations I would critique them first and then depending on how they reacted to my information I would either then praise them. Or I would let them know their choices. Possibly threaten to terminate them.
What I noticed was this. Some people, I would estimate most people reacted to the praise and positive reinforcement by working harder and having a better attitude.
Some people continued to work about the same.
Then some people slowed down after the positive reinforcement. They responded to negative reinforcement. After I would use the negative they would work harder.
I always wanted to be able to measure this and see compliance.  What motivates people to do what they do.

2.Goals what do you want or what do you want to happen? Goals are manipulated by reinforcing or hindering actions, events, money,  physical materials, people, and time and space. Keeping track of what you know. What you think you know, what you don't know and what you can't know allows for the most accurate information and control. If you are lying this becomes very difficult. Putting specific things in motion and devoting time and attention to certain areas allows us to try and achieve our goals. One of the problems I have seen with goals is sometimes we can focus so much or achieving our goal that we are blinded to other possibilities. We must be fluid enough to be able to adapt our goals to our changing environment. Also we must watch for other possibilities. This comes back to devotion of time and attention.
Order of priority is also a factor. What is the most important thing at that time and place and is there something that you should be doing instead? How you prioritize your life and what you devote your time and attention to decides who you are and what you achieve.  

3. Intent is a powerful thing. The Chi you produce and what you envision to happen is a very large part of who you are. Do you envision good or evil? Are you being selfish or generous? Do you forgive others or hold a grudge? Do you offer to help or do you criticise?  Are you being positive or negative? This demonstrates your intent. This determines the fruit you will bear. Remember what goes around comes around. How you approach others determines how they approach you. Peace and harmony. Or chaos and destruction are all choices. Set in motion by intent.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 03:41:21 AM by S. Earl Martin »
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 03:55:57 AM »
Oh I forgot I need to relate this to the topic manipulative people and how to deal with them. By applying these same techniques to others you can see their motivation and try and anticipate their goals or actions. Watching how they devote their time and attention etc. The only person you can really change is yourself so by knowing what you want and working toward it you can determine how to either work with others to achieve your goals or to determine who might be hindering them and how to deal with them. At best we can influence others. Controlling them takes extreme measures for the most part. Besides that the text that was posted is a good methodology for dealing with manipulative people.
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2009, 02:46:54 PM »
IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE? No one responded to my post. HELLO!  ;)
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 06:48:49 AM »
i know how you feel, i feel like a lot of my posts are being ignored :-\
The so-called miraculous powers of a great master are a natural accompaniment to his exact understanding of subtle laws that operate in the inner cosmos of consciousness.

S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 03:30:43 PM »
As I mentioned before in other threads my wife and I were working on a text that puts reality in formulas. The principles referred to before are some of the basic information contained in this text. They do not come from the formula section, but from the how to section. Maybe people are busy doing other things and this is a cycle were participation wains? Or maybe they are concerned about being manipulated by giving away to much personnel information? LOL!   ???
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 05:25:22 PM »
The difference between knowledge and wisdom is. Knowledge is something that can be taught. Wisdom takes experience and shows you how to use the knowledge to your advantage.  Weather wisdom can be taught or if it can only be acquired threw experience is debateable. I believe the principles to aquiring wisdom can be taught, but wisdom takes experience and concentration. A mindset to achieve it. One of those questions that can not be fully answered in this life. Peace  ::)
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

SWM

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 05:31:49 PM »
i have personally had massive work load recently, i managed to finish part of that on two days ago and i am not catching up with the rest of my life. i hope that your summation is true for others also. rather than people being afraid of being manipulated. :D

as regards wisdom from experience. i think wisdom can be taught the way socrates taught, or the way that a zen master would teach. in this case the teacher points to the experience. the teacher is a guide to experiential learning.

The so-called miraculous powers of a great master are a natural accompaniment to his exact understanding of subtle laws that operate in the inner cosmos of consciousness.

voodoo scientist

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2009, 11:35:23 PM »
IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE? No one responded to my post. HELLO!  ;)

You were doing so well until you started going on about chi, which you obviously are capable of defining much better and more precisely.

Actually I'm curious here, did the chi part of this theory get tacked on after you got leukemia? It seems like a bad earmark in an otherwise solid piece of legislation.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 11:36:44 PM by voodoo scientist »
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S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2009, 02:01:11 PM »
Hello VooDoo I see you are still being yourself. Oh yes we all have gotta do what we gotta do. LOL! Seriously I do enjoy your perspective. You keep me on my toes so to speak. Yes I did think about the Chi reference after the fact as to weather it should have been phrased differently. No I believed in the principles of Chi for quite sometime, even before I was aware of anything written about them. I could have substituted will or something else I guess, but I believe that Chi exists and relates to cause and effect. I believe we by our actions create a charge of some kind of energy. That if we produce good fruit we produce a good charge and in the long run good comes back to us. With bad fruit the opposite is true. I would have no way of proving this, but in my years on this planet. I have seen the adage that we will reap what we sow come to pass many times. People who think they are sneaky and can get away with something eventually getting caught. To be fair probably there are some instances where people actually get away with something. So who knows?

I will take the gist of your post as a compliment. Which from you is really something. You tend to be critical so any positive statement is rare. LOL!

On the other hand I did not include any reference to Chi or anything of that nature in the D-Text. I spent many years condenseing it and making it as factual as I could. So in a way you are correct that the Chi reference did get inserted after I got Leukemia. At least in this instance. Good to interact with you. I hope you are blessed. Peace.
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

S. Earl Martin

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2009, 02:26:46 PM »
So Voo Doo what do you think of intent and its effect on our reality?  ;D
Time is all we really have.

We do not own the earth. We are borrowing it from our children.

Is that what you really think? 

How many ignorant people does it take to destroy a planet?

Live & Let Live

Zepher08

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Re: What is the best way of dealing With Manipulative People?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2009, 09:43:04 PM »
VooDoo sometimes I just want to blurt out milk puff when I see the container on the  board and I forget to read just looking ...but more important that that I would like to thank you for speaking up about Sheldon  Kopp on another thread...i have since then read 1 .5 books and am getting the info I am looking for. Thanks

With that in mind S.B.Kopp writes something good about personal power that I find answers a lot of questions about manipulators or power players.
Seems the more developed personal power is the less I am affected/targeted by manipulators.

Peace

 

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